Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Maksutov »

What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Maksutov »

I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

User avatar
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by huckelberry »

Maksutov wrote:What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.

Maksukov, I think whether you hear moral corruption or moral wisdom in this quote depends upon what sort of lies a person assumes are under consideration.

1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."

User avatar
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by huckelberry »

Maksutov wrote:I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

It might be noted that this comment is quite different than advising or commanding polygamy. It might also be observed that Luther declining to condemn polygamy does not mean he thinks that the government could not rule against it.

Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Maksutov »

huckelberry wrote:
Maksutov wrote:I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

It might be noted that this comment is quite different than advising or commanding polygamy. It might also be observed that Luther declining to condemn polygamy does not mean he thinks that the government could not rule against it.

Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

So they could ignore the Ten Commandments? :razz: Not exactly sola scriptura is it?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

User avatar
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by huckelberry »

Maksutov wrote:
huckelberry wrote:Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

So they could ignore the Ten Commandments? :razz: Not exactly sola scriptura is it?

Luther certainly made his mistakes and serious negatives. As best I can tell, taking sola scriptura as requiring not thinking was not one of them .

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 22359
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by moksha »

huckelberry wrote:1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."

So where would this one fall on that scale?
An angel says you have to "marry" me or he will skewer me with his drawn sword.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

Mittens
God
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Mittens »

moksha wrote:
huckelberry wrote:1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."

So where would this one fall on that scale?

An angel says you have to "marry" me or he will skewer me with his drawn sword.

Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve

User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Maksutov »

Mittens wrote:Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg

Example of God considering doing evil, then repenting. Exodus 32:14.

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

It took Moses to talk God out of being an ahole. Since Moses, nobody bothers, apparently. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

LittleNipper
God
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

However, the Bible clearly states that a Bishop is to be the husband of but one wife. So anyone thinking about being a church leader could not be a polygamist. Sort of ruins the whole Joseph Smith standard...

LittleNipper
God
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:
Mittens wrote:Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg

Example of God considering doing evil, then repenting. Exodus 32:14.

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

It took Moses to talk God out of being an ahole. Since Moses, nobody bothers, apparently. :lol:
I believe the Bible is expressing how GOD "feels" in human terms for our benefit. And GOD teaches man through such interactions. Remember Abraham dealing with GOD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? The reality is we see that there were not 10 righteous individuals in any of those cities or GOD would have sparred them. Clearly, Abraham could not conceive that there could not be at least 10.

User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Maksutov »

LittleNipper wrote:I believe the Bible is expressing how GOD "feels" in human terms for our benefit. And GOD teaches man through such interactions. Remember Abraham dealing with GOD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? The reality is we see that there were not 10 righteous individuals in any of those cities or GOD would have sparred them. Clearly, Abraham could not conceive that there could not be at least 10.


Abraham the holy. The dude who would have killed his son for Yahweh and gave his daughters up to be raped for the same. Abraham was a disgusting man who found favor with an equally disgusting deity. I can tell a lot about people by what they worship. :wink:

A lovely story to tell people to value their shaman above their family.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

User avatar
SPG
Stake High Council
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by SPG »

Maksutov wrote:What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.

This was a man after my own heart. We look for the functionality of thing more than the truth of it.

User avatar
SPG
Stake High Council
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by SPG »

huckelberry wrote:It might be noted that this comment is quite different than advising or commanding polygamy. It might also be observed that Luther declining to condemn polygamy does not mean he thinks that the government could not rule against it.

Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

Why would he condemn polygamy? Human relationships are not defined be the mathematics of them. He probably had several friends in such relationships.

User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10185
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Res Ipsa »

SPG wrote:
Maksutov wrote:What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.

This was a man after my own heart. We look for the functionality of thing more than the truth of it.


Are you saying it's the consequences that matter and not the truth?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

aussieguy55
God
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:22 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by aussieguy55 »

Dietrich Bonhoffer " It is better to be a lover of truth and tell a lie than a liar and tell a truth"

"If a teacher asks a student "Did your father come home drunk again last night it is ok for the student to lie and avoid shame. It is none of the teacher's business"

Luther "It is better to be ruled by a wise infidel than a Christian fool"
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"

User avatar
SPG
Stake High Council
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by SPG »

Res Ipsa wrote:Are you saying it's the consequences that matter and not the truth?


Truth is demonstrated in the consequences. Truth is a quest, and often a noble one, but also a fool's errand. It cannot be found.

The end result, (while measured and judged by our concepts of truth) should be really measure of thought or deed.

I wanted an entire town go at each other in the name of truth. I was like, "who cares, we are family." Which, in it's own was way truth, but not the whole truth, and just my take on truth. But I could tell, that this particular quest for truth, was pure maddest.

User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10185
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Res Ipsa »

SPG wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Are you saying it's the consequences that matter and not the truth?


Truth is demonstrated in the consequences. Truth is a quest, and often a noble one, but also a fool's errand. It cannot be found.

The end result, (while measured and judged by our concepts of truth) should be really measure of thought or deed.

I wanted an entire town go at each other in the name of truth. I was like, "who cares, we are family." Which, in it's own was way truth, but not the whole truth, and just my take on truth. But I could tell, that this particular quest for truth, was pure maddest.


That bit you stuck in parenthesis is the bit that makes your view of truth v. effect incoherent. Yes, you can use postmodernist deconstruction to tear down the ideas you don’t like while protecting the ideas you like by special pleading, but the unjustified inconsistency is pretty glaring.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 22359
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by moksha »

Common Liturgical Calendar: Tomorrow will be Spy Wednesday.

Spy Wednesday gets its name because that is the day on which Judas betrayed Jesus to the General Authorities in the Sanhedrin.

Hope that helps.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

User avatar
SPG
Stake High Council
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by SPG »

Res Ipsa wrote:
That bit you stuck in parenthesis is the bit that makes your view of truth v. effect incoherent. Yes, you can use postmodernist deconstruction to tear down the ideas you don’t like while protecting the ideas you like by special pleading, but the unjustified inconsistency is pretty glaring.

You say I'm bias in my deconstruction of ideas?

Maybe....

But I try to be consistent. I admit that even my favorite ideas can be torn a apart. But, it's true that I like some ideas more true than others. I can use some ideas more than others. Just because I find an idea useful doesn't make it more truth then one I don't like. I think the actual truth of the universe scares us.

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies

Post by Amore »

SPG wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
That bit you stuck in parenthesis is the bit that makes your view of truth v. effect incoherent. Yes, you can use postmodernist deconstruction to tear down the ideas you don’t like while protecting the ideas you like by special pleading, but the unjustified inconsistency is pretty glaring.

You say I'm bias in my deconstruction of ideas?

Maybe....

But I try to be consistent. I admit that even my favorite ideas can be torn a apart. But, it's true that I like some ideas more true than others. I can use some ideas more than others. Just because I find an idea useful doesn't make it more truth then one I don't like. I think the actual truth of the universe scares us.

I admire your gumption, SPG. You’re so open and sharing a lot that gets torn apart. Of course it’s much easier to destroy than to build. This forum and others that are predominantly Atheist, have tested my faith - sometimes too much.

A couple other comments... It never ceases to amaze me how obsessed ex-Mormon men are with polygamy. I’m not meaning you - you have a much more realistic idea of it. But I’ve noticed in some men - who could pick so many Mormon controversies - but focus on polygamy. I think it’s part of their shadow fantasy. ;) The fact is that many people practice secret polygamy - cheating. My husband’s dad had a whole other family in a different city - of which his other un-wed “wife” & family had no idea.

I like what you wrote, “We look for the functionality of thing more than the truth of it.” True! I’m sure there are many cases of functional illusions, but an obvious one is every 1st week of January- gyms are packed - the belief that daily exercise is most important... when really it’s like 20% & diet 80%. Yet, often exercise improves diet - so it works. Music and especially dance are also functional illusions - not exactly logically truthful - but they can be powerful in various ways.

Post Reply