Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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Holy Ghost
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Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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The LDS Church removed the lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition, with an explanation that the lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". (See Introduction, 1921 edition.)

What is any scripture but theological lectures or lessons?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

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Shulem
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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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The Temple Endowment and other temple rites and ceremonies have not been presented to the the Church for a vote of approval and are therefore subject to change and modification at will without the need for any approval from the body of the Church. President NelSatan has a blank check to do whatever he wants with the temple. The members have ZERO say and cannot reject any changes or additions that he prescribes. There is no unaccountably. The temple overseer (President of the Church) is a DICTATOR and doesn't have to account to anyone for anything. Whatever he says goes, period.

For reference:

Wikipedia Lectures on Faith

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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Where does the Community of Christ or any of the other Smithian churches stand on these Lectures of the Faith?
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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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moksha wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:09 am
Where does the Community of Christ or any of the other Smithian churches stand on these Lectures of the Faith?
From the link I posted above:
Wikipedia wrote:The lectures were removed from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints version of the Doctrine and Covenants in 1897, although that denomination began publishing the lectures in a separate volume in 1952.

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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Holy Ghost wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:11 pm
The LDS Church removed the lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition, with an explanation that the lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". (See Introduction, 1921 edition.)

What is any scripture but theological lectures or lessons?
The Church in 1921 was not the same Church as that of 1835. The Mormons in Utah were already long term apostates having forsaken polygamy, revelation, and the Lectures.

Handwritten Church History 1835
Church History wrote:January 1835

January Lectures on Theology.​ During the month of January I was engaged in the school of the elders, and in preparing the Lectures on Theology for publication in the Book of Doctrine and covenants, which the committee appointed last September, were now compililing. Certain brethren from Bolton, New York, came for council, relative to their proceeding to the west, the High council assembled on the 18th. After a long investigation, I decided that Elder Tanner assist with his might to build up the cause by tarrying in Kirtland, which decision received the unanimous vote of the council.

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The Lectures were OFFICIAL and approved

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https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/9 wrote:DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
of
the church of the
LATTER DAY SAINTS:
CAREFULLY SELECTED
FROM THE REVELATIONS OF GOD,
and compiled by
JOSEPH SMITH Junior.
OLIVER COWDERY,
SIDNEY RIGDON,
FREDERICK G. WILLIAMS,
-[Presiding Elders of said Church.]-
PROPRIETORS.

KIRTLAND, OHIO.
PRINTED BY F. G. WILLIAMS & CO.
FOR THE
PROPRIETORS.
1835.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/11 wrote:PREFACE.

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:
We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.
The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.
The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.
There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.
The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/12 wrote:way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.
We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.
We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.
With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F.G. WILLIAMS.
Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/13 wrote:THEOLOGY.

LECTURE FIRST

On the doctrine of the church of the
Latter Day Saints.

Of Faith.

SECTION I.

1 Faith being the first principle in revealed religion,

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE General Conference April 1921 wrote: There is one little point in regard to that which I will mention :
In the book of Doctrine and Covenants we have a number of lectures in-
serted in the first part; which are not revelations. There are seven lec-
tures, and in the fifth lecture, particularly, we are told that there are
two personages in heaven, the Father and the Son, and that the holy
spirit is the mind of God. That is true, so far as it goes. But the reve-
lation through the Prophet Joseph Smith as to the personality of the
Holy Ghost came many years after; it was given in 1843. In that reve-
lation we are clearly instructed concerning the third personage in the
Trinity.

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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But the revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith as to the personality of the Holy Ghost came many years after; it was given in 1843. In that revelation, we are clearly instructed concerning the third personage in the Trinity.
So the Lectures supported a traditional trinitarian view of God and thus it needed to be removed?
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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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moksha wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:16 am
But the revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith as to the personality of the Holy Ghost came many years after; it was given in 1843. In that revelation, we are clearly instructed concerning the third personage in the Trinity.
So the Lectures supported a traditional trinitarian view of God and thus it needed to be removed?
Yes, church doctrine and theology of God evolved and changed with the times according to Smith's evolving narrative. This has ever been pointed out by the critics but apologists cling to the First Vision story of Two Persons and the Spirit being a Personage of Spirit as if it was the original narrative Smith started on day one. Although to be fair the Book of Mormon does mention the Spirit as a kind of ghost-man; but even that appears purely symbolic. The Lectures became a problem because it challenged the original assertion that two bodily Persons were in that grove with Joseph when the early records show that wasn't the case and Smith's last and final teachings pushed the teachings that are fully embraced by the Church today. But even so, the Church today doesn't like to talk about how God was once a man and had to work out his own salvation with his God. No, the Church doesn't want to admit that nasty nugget. But Oh how they love the idea of Father having a body but refuse to talk about his anus. To me it just doesn't make sense. The whole idea of an Almighty and Omniscient God being stuck in a body of flesh and bones is childish and immature. The Mormons need their sky daddy to give them a sense of security like a baby blanket. Mormons are stuck in childhood fantasy. They never grow up. They just keep kneeling like children and praying to their invisible sky daddy. It's really quite laughable. Hey, I used to do that stuff too but grew out of it, thankfully!

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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This is an interesting treatment of Lecture 5:

The Godhead LECTURE FIFTH
LECTURE FIFTH wrote:The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle
Now, based on the canon of 1835 if you were to ask the following brethren whether the Father had a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's as later attested in 1843 in D&C 130; what would be their response?

Does the Father have a body of flesh and bone?

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
[ ] Yes
[x] No - He does not -- the Father is a Personage of Spirit, see Lecture 5

OLIVER COWDERY.
[ ] Yes
[x] No - The Father is a Spirit just as Jesus pronounced in St John

SIDNEY RIGDON.
[ ] Yes
[x] No - To say the Father has a body of flesh is a form of blasphemy

F.G. WILLIAMS.
[ ] Yes
[x] No - Jesus has a resurrected body of flesh and bone but the Father is a Spirit only

Amen

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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Such is the message in the “Explanatory Introduction” of the 1921 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants: “Certain lessons, entitled “Lectures on Faith,” which were bound in with the Doctrine and Covenants in some of its former issues, are not included in this edition. Those lessons were prepared for use in the School of the Elders, conducted in Kirtland, Ohio, during the winter of 1834–1835; but they were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons (v).”

Church leaders have acknowledged that the decision to omit the Lectures on Faith in the 1921 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants was based not only on the fact that they are not revelations, but it also had to do with some of the teachings about the Godhead in Lecture 5, as I mentioned earlier. Elders James E. Talmage, John A. Widtsoe, and Joseph Fielding Smith served as a committee to consider whether to continue to publish the Lectures on Faith with the revelations (Fitzgerald 345). Fitzgerald reports that he was told in a 22 July 1940 interview with Elder Joseph Fielding Smith:

They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on this point of doctrine are given in section 130 of . . . The Doctrine and Covenants.

It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up The Doctrine and Covenants (345). [9 Elder Smith is also reported to have said in this same interview that the Lectures are explanations of the principle of faith “but are not doctrine.” In this statement he may have been comparing certain items in the Lectures (perhaps Lecture 5) with doctrine as understood in 1940, and not making a “historically erroneous” statement as has been suggested by some.]
Dahl, Larry E., "Authorship and History of the Lectures on Faith", BYU Religious Studies Center https://rsc.BYU.edu/lectures-faith-hist ... ures-faith

So as not to confuse the membership, why does the current LDS leadership not remove the damning Facsmiles and Explanations from the Book of Abraham as not themselves doctrine, but merely 'teaching aids'?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

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Re: Removal in 1921 of the Lectures on Faith

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Holy Ghost wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:43 pm
So as not to confuse the membership, why does the current LDS leadership not remove the damning Facsmiles and Explanations from the Book of Abraham as not themselves doctrine, but merely 'teaching aids'?
I doubt the First Presidency will ever make much of a statement or provide explanation after they have removed the Facsimiles and Explanations from the Pearl of Great Price canon. They will simply exclude them from the new edition and provide a footnote something to the effect that the Facsimiles were an exploratory exercise by the brethren attempting to convey meaning from the vignettes that accompanied the Joseph Smith papyri but that those messages were only a teaching tool and were not meant to be taken literally but figuratively. Same goes for the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.

You can bet that the Church is getting close to pulling the Facsimiles. That is going to be a major victory for critics such as myself who have long fought to get the Church to make the necessary change. Then it's just a matter of maintaining historic record of what the early saints actually said about the Facsimiles and how today's saints are not in agreement but have backtracked out of necessity and their complete failure to defend the erroneous claims made by the early church.

Then we can focus on the text to show how it's not really historical and was produced by a 19th century mind having limited knowledge of things pertaining to the Egyptians other than what was read in the bible and sources such as Adam Clarke. It is conceivable that the Church could pull the entire Book of Abraham and reclassify it. It's hard to say. But whatever the Church decides to do it has already been shown and proven that the early saints were lost in their own maze of deceit.

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The Lectures were Official Doctrine and Revelation

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general assembly of the church met in Kirtland, Ohio, to review and approve “a book of commandments and covenants”

1835:

1. "they came from God. President John Smith then called the Vote of the Presidency which was carried as follows That they would receive the Book as the rule of their faith & practice"

2. "The vote of the High council was then called and carried in confirmation of the above"

3. "Counsellor Levi Jackman, then arose and said that he had examined as many of the revelations contained in the book as were printed in Zion & as firmly believes them as he does the Book of Mormon or the Bible"

4. "examined the Lectures and many of the Revelations contained in it, and was perfectly satisfied with the same, and further, that he knew that they were true by the testimony of the Holy Spirit of God"

5. "beyond a doubt, and the revelations contained in it he knew were true, for God had testified to him by his holy Spirit, for many of them were given"

Image

Apostate Church President Heber Grant got rid of the Lectures

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