Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Letter

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Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Letter

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A bit of background is in order. Dated October 16, 1990, F. Michael Watson, then the ordained and set-apart Secretary to the First Presidency sent a letter to Bishop Darrel L. Brooks, Moore Ward in Oklahoma, with instruction to answer congregant Ronnie Sparks' question about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites took place. Sparks had sent his question in a letter addressed to the First Presidency. For the First Presidency in 1990, Watson stated, in line with what President Marion G. Romney had bore testimony to during a General Conference talk in October 1975:
The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.


FARMS, specifically Bill Hamblin as joined in by the illustrious Dan Peterson and others, claimed that the First Presidency walked back on ("clarified") this issue on April 23, 1993 relying on an unsigned fax of that date from Carla Ogden of the Office of the First Presidency to Brent Hall, FARMS, with no mention of Watson, much less the prophet or his counselors: "The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanation because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested."

This language very closely tracks that of David A. Palmer in the "Cumorah" entry in Daniel H. Ludlow's 1992, unofficial "Encyclopedia of Mormonism", page 347: "Because the New York site does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Book of Mormon Geography, some Latter-day Saints have looked for other possible explanations and locations, including Mesoamerica. Although some have identified possible sites that may seem to fit better (Palmer), there are not conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested."

Bill Hamblin cited to Ms. Ogden's fax as authority and as if from Michael Watson in his article, "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2/1 (1993): 161–197, fn 70. (In the text, Hamblin wrote, "Michael Watson, secretary to the First Presidency of the Church, has recently clarified the Church's position on the Book of Mormon geography." and in the footnote Hamblin described the fax as "Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993."

The April 23, 1993 fax from Ms. Ogden as the correspondence mentioned by Hamblin first came to light outside of FARMS in late 2009. The fax, albeit on letterhead of the Office of the First Presidency, does not mention Michael Watson.

In the meantime between 1993 and 2009, now LDS president, Russell M. Nelson, wrote in “A Testimony of the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, 69: “Interesting as these matters may be, study of the Book of Mormon is most rewarding when one focuses on its primary purpose—to testify of Jesus Christ. By comparison, all other issues are incidental.”

Recently, on LDS.org has appeared a short essay on "Book of Mormon Georgraphy." https://www.LDS.org/study/manual/gospel ... y?lang=eng In that essay, it is stated that "The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas.", "the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate" their "personal theories" about "Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken." Then, the essay concludes by quoting Russell M. Nelson, as mentioned above directing that Mormons' focus should be on the Book of Mormon's testifying of Jesus Christ, not matters of its geography, "Interesting as these matters may be,...."

It seems the Mormon church has now come around to the thinking of David A. Palmer's position, as parroted in Ms. Ogden's April 23, 1993 fax to Brent Hall, Farms, and as cited by Bill Hamblin. Sure, Hamblin still mis-attributed the fax to Michael Watson, but this essay gives Mormon church vindication of FARMS on this point. The Church has at last embraced the doctrine of Palmer rather than the testimony of President Marion G. Romney.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Holy Ghost wrote: The Church has at last embraced the doctrine of Palmer rather than the testimony of President Marion G. Romney.


What the Church has "embraced" is the collective anonymous "we just don't know" defense which of course raises the oft asked question of:

"What is it a prophet does again?"

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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Seems seminary and institute classes (and religion classes at the BYUs) are the only classes a student takes where the pat answer to student questions is not to provide answers.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Holy Ghost wrote:A bit of background is in order. Dated October 16, 1990, F. Michael Watson, then the ordained and set-apart Secretary to the First Presidency sent a letter to Bishop Darrel L. Brooks, Moore Ward in Oklahoma, with instruction to answer congregant Ronnie Sparks' question about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites took place. Sparks had sent his question in a letter addressed to the First Presidency. For the First Presidency in 1990, Watson stated, in line with what President Marion G. Romney had bore testimony to during a General Conference talk in October 1975:
The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.


FARMS, specifically Bill Hamblin as joined in by the illustrious Dan Peterson and others, claimed that the First Presidency walked back on ("clarified") this issue on April 23, 1993 relying on an unsigned fax of that date from Carla Ogden of the Office of the First Presidency to Brent Hall, FARMS, with no mention of Watson, much less the prophet or his counselors: "The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanation because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested."

This language very closely tracks that of David A. Palmer in the "Cumorah" entry in Daniel H. Ludlow's 1992, unofficial "Encyclopedia of Mormonism", page 347: "Because the New York site does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Book of Mormon Geography, some Latter-day Saints have looked for other possible explanations and locations, including Mesoamerica. Although some have identified possible sites that may seem to fit better (Palmer), there are not conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested."

Bill Hamblin cited to Ms. Ogden's fax as authority and as if from Michael Watson in his article, "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2/1 (1993): 161–197, fn 70. (In the text, Hamblin wrote, "Michael Watson, secretary to the First Presidency of the Church, has recently clarified the Church's position on the Book of Mormon geography." and in the footnote Hamblin described the fax as "Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993."

The April 23, 1993 fax from Ms. Ogden as the correspondence mentioned by Hamblin first came to light outside of FARMS in late 2009. The fax, albeit on letterhead of the Office of the First Presidency, does not mention Michael Watson.

In the meantime between 1993 and 2009, now LDS president, Russell M. Nelson, wrote in “A Testimony of the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, 69: “Interesting as these matters may be, study of the Book of Mormon is most rewarding when one focuses on its primary purpose—to testify of Jesus Christ. By comparison, all other issues are incidental.”

Recently, on LDS.org has appeared a short essay on "Book of Mormon Georgraphy." https://www.LDS.org/study/manual/gospel ... y?lang=eng In that essay, it is stated that "The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas.", "the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate" their "personal theories" about "Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken." Then, the essay concludes by quoting Russell M. Nelson, as mentioned above directing that Mormons' focus should be on the Book of Mormon's testifying of Jesus Christ, not matters of its geography, "Interesting as these matters may be,...."

It seems the Mormon church has now come around to the thinking of David A. Palmer's position, as parroted in Ms. Ogden's April 23, 1993 fax to Brent Hall, Farms, and as cited by Bill Hamblin. Sure, Hamblin still mis-attributed the fax to Michael Watson, but this essay gives Mormon church vindication of FARMS on this point. The Church has at last embraced the doctrine of Palmer rather than the testimony of President Marion G. Romney.


From a paper I wrote but never got published:

In recent years, proponents and opponents of a Mesoamerican theory of the Book of Mormon have focused upon two enigmatic letters which purport to have come from the office of the First Presidency. Unfortunately, they don’t really answer questions and fuel the fire for continued debate over the issue of official Church criticism of a limited geographic theory that might call for two Cumorahs. The letter first is dated October 16, 1990, signed by F. Michael Watson and addressed to a bishop in Oklahoma. Elder Watson was called to be the Secretary to the First Presidency in April 1986, and in 2008 called to the First Quorum of Seventy. Elder Watson’s letter states that the Hill Cumorah known to the Nephites is located in New York.

The second letter from the First Presidency’s office is more in the nature of a comment upon a cover sheet which typically transmits facsimile letters. On April 23, 1993, Carla Ogden sent the form to Brent Hall of FARMS. FAIR’s website reports without reference that she was the Senior Executive Secretary for the Office of the First Presidency as of 2009.

In his 1993 article defending the Sorenson model, Hamblin incorrectly cites the letter as “Correspondence from Michael Watson” when Watson’s name is nowhere mentioned in the document. Roper makes the same citation error in his rather significant FARMS 2004 apologetic defense (actually, a critique of early sources suggesting a hemispheric model) of the Mesoamerican theory. There is no doubt that Ogden was working in Watson’s office at the time, as Watson was working in the office of the First Presidency, but it is misleading to cite the letter as Watson’s work or to imply that it had the endorsement of Ezra Taft Benson.

Mesoamericanists favor the Ogden letter simply because it says the Church takes no position, a rather weak foundation for the cottage industry of limited geography. Ogden’s transmittal says, in part: “The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanations because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested.”

Both letters are of dubious provenance. It would be helpful, for example, to have a statement establishing the provenance of the Ogden facsimile from Brent Hall or of the Watson letter from the Oklahoma bishop. Brent Hall has apparently authored one short article for FARMS, but not on the subject of Book of Mormon archaeology.

The Ogden facsimile’s provenance is particularly precarious as almost all facsimile transmissions bear a ribbon of information either at the top or bottom, which the facsimile machine time-stamps. This one lacks it. As well, there seems to be information missing in some of the fields of the facsimile form. The possibilities for the absence of the fax strip are: (1) the Office of the First Presidency intentionally programmed the fax machine to omit the information ribbon, as these machines produce them automatically unless programmed otherwise; under this scenario, Ms. Ogden would have also have omitted information called for in the form; (2) when the Ogden facsimile was copied for Internet distribution, the ribbon of information and other pieces of information about the sender’s identity were redacted; (3) the Ogden facsimile may have been created from memory, after the fact, by somebody who didn’t think to add the ribbon of information and other private data. All of these are reasonable explanations for the missing data, and sufficient to cause one to want more provenance. Of course, the provenance issue can practically vanish with a statement from Brent Hall authenticating the document as a true copy and not one reconstructed from memory.

But, the Ogden facsimile merely quotes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, so it is not controversial as to its content. Despite being privately published, the Encyclopedia was extensively vetted by Church authorities for doctrinal consistency. Yet another hint that perhaps Church authorities might not see the Hill Cumorah as a pin in a known map.

The Watson letter was drafted on October 16, 1990, a Saturday, in proportionate font typically not found on typewriters in 1990 (although likely found at the Church in 1990). It would be highly unusual, but not impossible, for a church clerical person to be working on a Saturday in his office.

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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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If only the BYU Engineering Department could install a flux capacitor in Dr. Daniel Peterson's divining rod, we could have some exact locations as to where the events took place.

That would be a game changer for the 2019 FARMSaints Conference to be held in Levan, Utah at the Gas and Cheese Curd filling station from August 1-3.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Does this David Palmer character trump the standard works? Because the LDS scriptures say the hill from which Joseph Smith snagged the golden plates was the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon:
CUMORAH, HILL
See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr..
A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.
Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2–4
Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6:4
Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6:6
All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6:11
We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128:20
Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, Joseph Smith—H 1:42, 50–54, 59


http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/gs/cumorah-hill?lang=eng

Also, wasn't that Brigham Young character supposed to be a prophet or something?
Brigham Young wrote:I will tell you a story which will be marvelous to most of you. It was told me by Porter, whom I would believe just as quickly as any man that lives. When he tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story. I relate this because it is marvelous to you. But to those who understand these things, it is not marvelous.

You hear a great deal said about finding money. There is no difficulty at all in finding money, but there are a great many people who do not know what to do with it when they do find it. This is the great defect with the human family. I could relate many very singular circumstances. I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, but he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take. I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.


http://journalofdiscourses.com/19/8
If Moroni wandered for decades from Central America up to New York, how did he get wagonloads of plates into the Hill Cumorah in New York? Or is the official Restoredchurchofjesuschristian position now that Brigham Young was a liar?

See also http://lunarquaker.blogspot.com/2006/07/farms-geographical-mitosis-and.html
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Yahoo Bot wrote:From a paper I wrote but never got published:

In recent years, proponents and opponents of a Mesoamerican theory of the Book of Mormon have focused upon two enigmatic letters which purport to have come from the office of the First Presidency. Unfortunately, they don’t really answer questions and fuel the fire for continued debate over the issue of official Church criticism of a limited geographic theory that might call for two Cumorahs. The letter first is dated October 16, 1990, signed by F. Michael Watson and addressed to a bishop in Oklahoma. Elder Watson was called to be the Secretary to the First Presidency in April 1986, and in 2008 called to the First Quorum of Seventy. Elder Watson’s letter states that the Hill Cumorah known to the Nephites is located in New York.

The second letter from the First Presidency’s office is more in the nature of a comment upon a cover sheet which typically transmits facsimile letters. On April 23, 1993, Carla Ogden sent the form to Brent Hall of FARMS. FAIR’s website reports without reference that she was the Senior Executive Secretary for the Office of the First Presidency as of 2009.

In his 1993 article defending the Sorenson model, Hamblin incorrectly cites the letter as “Correspondence from Michael Watson” when Watson’s name is nowhere mentioned in the document. Roper makes the same citation error in his rather significant FARMS 2004 apologetic defense (actually, a critique of early sources suggesting a hemispheric model) of the Mesoamerican theory. There is no doubt that Ogden was working in Watson’s office at the time, as Watson was working in the office of the First Presidency, but it is misleading to cite the letter as Watson’s work or to imply that it had the endorsement of Ezra Taft Benson.

Mesoamericanists favor the Ogden letter simply because it says the Church takes no position, a rather weak foundation for the cottage industry of limited geography. Ogden’s transmittal says, in part: “The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanations because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site that has been suggested.”

Both letters are of dubious provenance. It would be helpful, for example, to have a statement establishing the provenance of the Ogden facsimile from Brent Hall or of the Watson letter from the Oklahoma bishop. Brent Hall has apparently authored one short article for FARMS, but not on the subject of Book of Mormon archaeology.

The Ogden facsimile’s provenance is particularly precarious as almost all facsimile transmissions bear a ribbon of information either at the top or bottom, which the facsimile machine time-stamps. This one lacks it. As well, there seems to be information missing in some of the fields of the facsimile form. The possibilities for the absence of the fax strip are: (1) the Office of the First Presidency intentionally programmed the fax machine to omit the information ribbon, as these machines produce them automatically unless programmed otherwise; under this scenario, Ms. Ogden would have also have omitted information called for in the form; (2) when the Ogden facsimile was copied for Internet distribution, the ribbon of information and other pieces of information about the sender’s identity were redacted; (3) the Ogden facsimile may have been created from memory, after the fact, by somebody who didn’t think to add the ribbon of information and other private data. All of these are reasonable explanations for the missing data, and sufficient to cause one to want more provenance. Of course, the provenance issue can practically vanish with a statement from Brent Hall authenticating the document as a true copy and not one reconstructed from memory.

But, the Ogden facsimile merely quotes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, so it is not controversial as to its content. Despite being privately published, the Encyclopedia was extensively vetted by Church authorities for doctrinal consistency. Yet another hint that perhaps Church authorities might not see the Hill Cumorah as a pin in a known map.

The Watson letter was drafted on October 16, 1990, a Saturday, in proportionate font typically not found on typewriters in 1990 (although likely found at the Church in 1990). It would be highly unusual, but not impossible, for a church clerical person to be working on a Saturday in his office.

October 16, 1990 was a Tuesday, so it would be highly usual for the Secretary to the First Presidency to be working on a Tuesday, in his office.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Well, now we know why YB's paper was never published. Jesus, Yahoo. Do you ever tire of being consistently wrong? smh...

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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Well, now we know why YB's paper was never published. Jesus, Yahoo. Do you ever tire of being consistently wrong? smh...

- Doc

Oops. I remember somebody else pointed that out to me years ago. The paper's just been sitting.

I'm not Jesus. Fortunately.

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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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moksha wrote:... the 2019 FARMSaints Conference to be held in Levan, Utah at the Gas and Cheese Curd filling station from August 1-3.

This would be a perfect place for Yahoo Bot to present his forgotten paper.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

Post by Holy Ghost »

Yahoo Bot wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Well, now we know why YB's paper was never published. Jesus, Yahoo. Do you ever tire of being consistently wrong? smh...

- Doc

Oops. I remember somebody else pointed that out to me years ago. The paper's just been sitting.

I'm not Jesus. Fortunately.

In light of the day of the week correction, what makes you doubt the provenance of the Oct 16, 1990 Watson letter, that was in line with what President Marion G. Romney testified was the location at the October 1975 General Conference?
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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I just plain have to post my sigline on Bot threads, just can't resist.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Well, now we know why YB's paper was never published. Jesus, Yahoo. Do you ever tire of being consistently wrong? smh...

- Doc

Oops. I remember somebody else pointed that out to me years ago. The paper's just been sitting.

I'm not Jesus. Fortunately.


All is forgiven, friend.

- Doc
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Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

Post by Dr Exiled »

This whole battle over where the fake hill cumorah really was is simply nonsense. On to a fiction model kids. It is the only model that adequately explains everything.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

Post by grindael »

Does it really matter what the First Presidency wrote in the 1990's? I mean, they can't even accept what Joseph Smith wrote in 1834 (Letter VII) of the Smith/Cowdery History, where they identify Cumorah as being in New York.

Letter VII destroys LGT. It always has, and always will and there is nothing they can do to throw any kind of doubt on it that will stick. That is why they attack anyone who brings it up and have the most silly and ridiculous arguments for why it isn't what it claims to be, the smoking gun for the Hemispheric Model for Book of Mormon geography.
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

Post by grindael »

On the FAIRMORMON page that has to do with this, they write,

In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
Question 14: Do you believe that the President of the Church, when speaking to the Church in his official capacity is infallible?
Answer: We do not believe in the infallibility of man. When God reveals anything it is truth, and truth is infallible. No President of the Church has claimed infallibility.


This is simply lawyer talk. Since the "President of the Church" claims to speak for God, then one must take everything he says as God's words when he is speaking in an official capacity. No one is claiming that pillow talk between a prophet and his wife is scripture. This argument is so ridiculous.

Here is how Marion G. Romney put it:

“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here.If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)
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Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

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Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost
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Re: Authoritative LDS Validation of import of 2nd Watson Let

Post by Holy Ghost »

grindael wrote:On the FAIRMORMON page that has to do with this, they write,

In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
Question 14: Do you believe that the President of the Church, when speaking to the Church in his official capacity is infallible?
Answer: We do not believe in the infallibility of man. When God reveals anything it is truth, and truth is infallible. No President of the Church has claimed infallibility.


This is simply lawyer talk. Since the "President of the Church" claims to speak for God, then one must take everything he says as God's words when he is speaking in an official capacity. No one is claiming that pillow talk between a prophet and his wife is scripture. This argument is so ridiculous.

Here is how Marion G. Romney put it:

“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here.If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)

I'm glad to hear that God would have told us to Ponderize t-shirt and other logo'd business opps.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate, Physics

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