Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Gunnar
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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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moksha wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 4:28 am
Gunnar wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:37 am
I can think of few things that more strongly discredit any claim by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints being especially favored or led by divine inspiration.
The Church has an out on two accounts:
1. Its leaders did not overtly tell the members to vote for Trump.
2. Not dissuading the members to vote for Trump could be considered supporting member's free agency to engage in evil.
Yeah, we both understand that, but if most of those members who voted for him felt inspired by the Holy Ghost, that doesn't say much in favor of the reliability of appealing to the Holy Ghost.

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of a quote by the Physicist, Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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So, the feds have been promising Washington state a large number of swabs to take samples for PCR testing. We launched our contact tracing specifically counting on those swabs to get us the testing capacity we need. A shipment arrived. It was not testing swabs -- it was a bunch of knock off Q-tips, just loose in boxes. Not sterile. Not individually wrapped.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Yeah, we both understand that, but if most of those members who voted for him felt inspired by the Holy Ghost, that doesn't say much in favor of the reliability of appealing to the Holy Ghost.
The natural man will never understand the things of the spirit, at least not in this life.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:22 am
So, the feds have been promising Washington state a large number of swabs to take samples for PCR testing. We launched our contact tracing specifically counting on those swabs to get us the testing capacity we need. A shipment arrived. It was not testing swabs -- it was a bunch of knock off Q-tips, just loose in boxes. Not sterile. Not individually wrapped.
America gets what it voted for. Don't be surprised if much of that money is going to people in government and connections to those in government. A crisis is one of the best opportunities to steal tax payer money.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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deleted duped post.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat May 16, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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ajax18 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:45 am
Yeah, we both understand that, but if most of those members who voted for him felt inspired by the Holy Ghost, that doesn't say much in favor of the reliability of appealing to the Holy Ghost.
The natural man will never understand the things of the spirit, at least not in this life.
What an outrageously ignorant and dishonest cop-out! That point of view makes it possible to justify continuing belief in any nonsense imaginable, no matter how stupid or dangerous or how abundant and incontrovertible the evidence against it. That is Heaven's Gate level irrationality! There well may be and probably are many things mankind will never understand, but given the history of the innumerable, mutually contradictory religious beliefs and belief systems, it is abundantly clear that by far the most unreliable means of gaining improved understanding, is primary reliance on spiritual or "divine" authority.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat May 16, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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ajax18 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:45 am
Yeah, we both understand that, but if most of those members who voted for him felt inspired by the Holy Ghost, that doesn't say much in favor of the reliability of appealing to the Holy Ghost.
The natural man will never understand the things of the spirit, at least not in this life.
Oh no wait. I can't agree with that. The Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion. Trump has caused nothing but chaos from the time he took oath. Trump isn't from God, ajax.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:54 pm
Oh no wait. I can't agree with that. The Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion. Trump has caused nothing but chaos from the time he took oath. Trump isn't from God, ajax.
Well said, Jersey Girl!

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Gunnar wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:58 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:54 pm
Oh no wait. I can't agree with that. The Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion. Trump has caused nothing but chaos from the time he took oath. Trump isn't from God, ajax.
Well said, Jersey Girl!
No Bible believing Christian can look at this and say Trump was sent to us by God. You'd have to have your brains totally dashed out to even entertain the idea given that he's putting our very lives on the sacrificial altar of his enormous ego.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Hilarious, Doc! Especially considering those two tweets were within only 15 minutes of each other! The man obviously doesn't care what the real truth is, and thinks all his supporters are complete imbeciles!

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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And as if things were not already bad enough: Polio was almost eradicated. Then came the coronavirus. Then came a threat from President Trump.
For decades, the United States has worked with the World Health Organization and others to quash polio, beating back to near extinction a merciless disease that once paralyzed hundreds of thousands of children each year.

...

Last month, President Trump threatened to cut U.S. funding for polio and every other WHO program over the U.N. agency’s coronavirus response, which he called “China-centric.” In the weeks since, the president and his aides have worked behind the scenes to sideline the WHO. They have also sought to deflect criticism of the United States’ handling of the crisis by pointing to the WHO’s failure to demand more transparency and accountability from China in the earliest stages of the outbreak....

Pulling U.S. money from polio could undercut a system of disease surveillance that could be central to combating this pandemic and those is the future...
The corona virus epidemic itself puts WHO's goal of finally vanquishing polio from the earth once and for all at some jeopardy, but Trump's eagerness to scapegoat WHO and withhold USA's contribution to that effort in an attempt to deflect blame and scrutiny of himself for his own incompetency certainly doesn't help anyone other than his own selfish, narcissistic self. Please read the whole article to get the entire context of what is happening regarding this issue.

Trump quite obviously doesn't care who or how many he has to hurt in order to get himself reelected!

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:44 pm
No Bible believing Christian can look at this and say Trump was sent to us by God.
Yeah, except there are thousands of Jesus types doing exactly that, Jersey Girl.

Religion writes a blank check: believe any ____ you want. The more outrageous, the better.

With religion, supporting Trump is a spiritual test. Without religion, supporting Trump makes you an ignorant asshole. The only difference between the two is the flavor of ____ swirling around in the supporter's mind. The election of Trump doesn't just discredit Joe Smith's cult. It discredits all forms of idiotic, magical thinking.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Some Schmo wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:55 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:44 pm
No Bible believing Christian can look at this and say Trump was sent to us by God.
Yeah, except there are thousands of Jesus types doing exactly that, Jersey Girl.

Religion writes a blank check: believe any ____ you want. The more outrageous, the better.

With religion, supporting Trump is a spiritual test. Without religion, supporting Trump makes you an ignorant asshole. The only difference between the two is the flavor of ____ swirling around in the supporter's mind. The election of Trump doesn't just discredit Joe Smith's cult. It discredits all forms of idiotic, magical thinking.
What I see (through a believing lens) happening before me is nothing short of spiritual warfare. If Christians allow themselves to turn their eyes and minds to the controversies, lies, and failed promises of the Trump administration without keeping themselves grounded in the Word, they're in deep trouble.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Cor 14:33

If Trump were actually God-led this country wouldn't have been in a state of constant chaos for the past near four years. He wouldn't have to lie to sway the public, there would be unity and a sense of security and peace. What we have is exactly the opposite effect and now it is costing us human lives.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:16-20


It's all in the Book. If some believers have tossed it aside, then more's the pity. And, even Franklin Graham is in that camp.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:56 pm
What I see (through a believing lens) happening before me is nothing short of spiritual warfare. If Christians allow themselves to turn their eyes and minds to the controversies, lies, and failed promises of the Trump administration without keeping themselves grounded in the Word, they're in deep trouble.
So, if every religious person took their religion seriously as a rough philosophy or ideology rather than a dogma (like you appear to mostly), and just sort of tried to live more or less by it privately, I'd have nothing to say about religion except, "It's not for me, but if it helps you, cool."

But because religious people aren't all like that, and some of them take their dogma so seriously they want to impose it on others, it makes me critical of holding beliefs that are evidence-free in the first place. If you allow yourself the indulgence of believing something based on feelings, you've just trotted out onto the slipperiest of slopes.

I desire nothing but a world of live and let live, but that means elevating facts to where they belong and keeping opinions in their place. We aren't there yet.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

Post by Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:11 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:56 pm
What I see (through a believing lens) happening before me is nothing short of spiritual warfare. If Christians allow themselves to turn their eyes and minds to the controversies, lies, and failed promises of the Trump administration without keeping themselves grounded in the Word, they're in deep trouble.
So, if every religious person took their religion seriously as a rough philosophy or ideology rather than a dogma (like you appear to mostly), and just sort of tried to live more or less by it privately, I'd have nothing to say about religion except, "It's not for me, but if it helps you, cool."

But because religious people aren't all like that, and some of them take their dogma so seriously they want to impose it on others, it makes me critical of holding beliefs that are evidence-free in the first place. If you allow yourself the indulgence of believing something based on feelings, you've just trotted out onto the slipperiest of slopes.

I desire nothing but a world of live and let live, but that means elevating facts to where they belong and keeping opinions in their place. We aren't there yet.
As usual, I fully agree with you sentiments here. I also appreciate the mutually respectful relationship between you and Jersey Girl, whom I regard as a dear friend, despite never having met her in person. Like you, I don't always agree with her, but I do more often than not about most things. If all Christians were like her, this world would be a much better place! I think you would agree that she is one of the most interesting and valuable contributors to this forum.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Gunnar wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:41 am
As usual, I fully agree with you sentiments here. I also appreciate the mutually respectful relationship between you and Jersey Girl, whom I regard as a dear friend, despite never having met her in person. Like you, I don't always agree with her, but I do more often than not about most things. If all Christians were like her, this world would be a much better place! I think you would agree that she is one of the most interesting and valuable contributors to this forum.
I actually have had a pretty long, somewhat rocky relationship with Jersey Girl. When we first started interacting, we would have some pretty good arguments. I told her a long time ago that I respected her, and that I would always be completely straight with her. Clearly we disagree on some fundamental things, but I think there have been times when I may have spoken less artfully and she mistook my intent. I also think there are times when she has overreacted to my comments... for a time.

But I always take what she says seriously, and I believe she means well. Yeah, I like Jersey Girl. She's like a lot of people I know - drive me nuts but I can't seem to quit them.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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ajax18 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:45 am
Yeah, we both understand that, but if most of those members who voted for him felt inspired by the Holy Ghost, that doesn't say much in favor of the reliability of appealing to the Holy Ghost.
The natural man will never understand the things of the spirit, at least not in this life.
Just don't mistake things of the spirit as the sulfurous emissions from Trump. That comes from too much brimstone.

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

Post by Gunnar »

moksha wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:54 am
Just don't mistake things of the spirit as the sulfurous emissions from Trump. That comes from too much brimstone.
If what Trump advocates and does are examples of "things of the spirit", that is the strongest argument I can possibly imagine against seeking and relying on "things of the spirit."

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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

Post by Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:27 pm
I actually have had a pretty long, somewhat rocky relationship with Jersey Girl. When we first started interacting, we would have some pretty good arguments. I told her a long time ago that I respected her, and that I would always be completely straight with her. Clearly we disagree on some fundamental things, but I think there have been times when I may have spoken less artfully and she mistook my intent. I also think there are times when she has overreacted to my comments... for a time.

But I always take what she says seriously, and I believe she means well. Yeah, I like Jersey Girl. She's like a lot of people I know - drive me nuts but I can't seem to quit them.
I have a much longer history with Jersey Girl than you have, and she will attest that there have been longstanding disagreements between her and me as well. Nevertheless, we have managed to develop a strong friendship and rapport with each other. We have even each yielded to the other's point of view and resolved our differences of opinion on occasion. I think I can fairly say that both of us have altered each other's opinions and understanding for the better, over all, based on honestly considering opposing arguments of the other. I won't presume to say which of us has had the most wins in our disputes, but I think she would agree that both of us have had both wins and losses. In general, though, the points on which she and I still disagree are the same ones on which she and you disagree, with my views almost invariably coinciding with yours, rather than hers.

I particularly agree with the part of your comments that I bolded and underlined. She is a good, compassionate, and generous person. As I said before, if all Christians were like her, the world would be a much better place, and DJT would never have been elected.

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moksha
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Re: Stark Reality of Ineptitude of Trump's Covid-19 Response

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:56 pm
If Christians allow themselves to turn their eyes and minds to the controversies, lies, and failed promises of the Trump administration without keeping themselves grounded in the Word, they're in deep trouble.
That is a good point. Trump is playing this group of believers for chumps and they are willingly falling for it. Maybe they can work on an excuse for Judgment Day and say everyone else in their congregation was doing it too.

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