Flynn Walks

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ajax18
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by ajax18 »

As long as President Obama tells the truth, he should have anything to worry about right? Susan Rice already made sure to note on January 17, 2017 before he left office that he wanted the Flynn investigation done by the book back on January 4, 2017. Won't that be enough to cover the President so only those below him in the administration have to answer for using illegal tactics to prosecute men they knew were innocent in an effort to overturn the results of the 2016 election.

I'm sure the ends justify any illegal means in the eyes of most Democrats.

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Chap
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Re: Flynn Walks

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:17 am
I'm sure the ends justify any illegal means in the eyes of most Democrats.
Do the majority of Democrats (presumably in the general sense of those who support Democrat candidates with their vote) think this way?

I don't think you'd find that even the majority of Republican voters think of Democrats that way, or that the majority of Democrats voters think of Republicans that way.

I have a feeling you are way out on a limb here. Or if you aren't, the US is in a very bad place indeed.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

Ajax is part of a vast political culture that currently controls most of the US government believes that subverting the law (or, more importantly, propriety) is appropriate in pursuit of power and projects that onto its opposition so people like himself can reason that since it is corruption all the way down anyway, it might as well be for what he favors. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" he tells himself, then eagerly shares that thought here. That's the first goal of the conspiracy mongering - to provide cover for the real stuff.

People like Honor then get co-opted to provide cover for people like Ajax. Because the truth is always somewhere in the middle, you just need to force the "middle" to an extreme and you got someone who is willing to argue that nuance dictates that you exist as part of a valid co-partisan debate where you make some good points and anyone who points out this is insanity gets gaslighted as hysterical.

This isn't even a "smart" strategy per se. It's just bad actors whose failings are advantaged in a broken culture.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Flynn Walks

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Boy, Honor must’ve really gotten under EAllusion’s skin.

-Doc

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

USPS leadership is now being purged, so you can add that to the purge list.

Also, the names of investigators who uncovered Flynn are being declassified now for what I am sure is legitimate purposes:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/politics ... index.html

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ajax18
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by ajax18 »

EAllusion wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:22 pm
USPS leadership is now being purged, so you can add that to the purge list.

Also, the names of investigators who uncovered Flynn are being declassified now for what I am sure is legitimate purposes:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/politics ... index.html
Why are you worried about this being declassified? Why do you want this to remain hidden to the public?

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

If anyone wants proof Ajax can’t make it past a couple of sentences, this is it. He keeps asking the same r____ questions over and over again.

- Doc

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honorentheos
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Re: Flynn Walks

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EAllusion wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:17 am
Most of the time it takes the form of positing the inevitability of extreme ramifications that, outside of certain parties, isn't reflecting the scope of the issue.
The impressive part is you wrote this post *after* the President started trying to whip up going after President Obama and former members of his administration related to investigation into his circle's malfeasance for sham crimes, promised more to come in that regard, right-wing media began blanket coverage supporting that position, and multiple US Senators backed doing so. When you want to describe my claim that this is the likely next step as a hysterical overreaction, you should consider being wrong before something like that happens instead of after. It looks a little less ridiculous.
Is pointing out Trump will do Trump like he's been doing since forever saying anything? I mean,

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

Some right wing guys tweets, "Obama should be in jail" and Trump retweets it, then you run with it while bitching about media covering Trump in ways that push the country further in a bad direction...what, wait, wait that can't be right. EAllusion is super smart and wouldn't participate in that while mocking others as being victimized/giving cover to bad people because they, you know, discuss issues with the facts on the table rather than behaving like a hyperventilating git. Or something. Because if you ain't hyperventilating, you ain't paying attention apparently goes the thinking here.

:lol:

Anywho, it looks like the judge is making space for it to be debated which seems reasonable.

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moksha
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Re: Flynn Walks

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:17 am
As long as President Obama tells the truth, he should have anything to worry about right? Susan Rice already made sure to note on January 17, 2017 before he left office that he wanted the Flynn investigation done by the book back on January 4, 2017. Won't that be enough to cover the President so only those below him in the administration have to answer for using illegal tactics to prosecute men they knew were innocent in an effort to overturn the results of the 2016 election.
You are making the assumption that the United States justice system is in the hands of honorable men rather than a criminal sycophant that will do the bidding of his master.

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moksha
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by moksha »

No matter how out of control Trump gets, he will still have the support of the Republican Senate and the Armed Forces. That means a lot of unpredictable stuff can occur.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

[quote=honorentheos post_id=1224419 time=1589343098 user_id=7137]
Is pointing out Trump will do Trump like he's been doing since forever saying anything? I mean,

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

Some right wing guys tweets, "Obama should be in jail" and Trump retweets it, then you run with it while bitching about media covering Trump in ways that push the country further in a bad direction...what, wait, wait that can't be right. EAllusion is super smart and wouldn't participate in that while mocking others as being victimized/giving cover to bad people because they, you know, discuss issues with the facts on the table rather than behaving like a hyperventilating git. Or something. Because if you ain't hyperventilating, you ain't paying attention apparently goes the thinking here.

:lol:

Anywho, it looks like the judge is making space for it to be debated which seems reasonable.
[/quote]

This could've been shorter if you folded your arms like a wise, serious man and said you gotta take Trump seriously, but not literally. Because when has that ever turned out to be wrong? I did enjoy you reducing extensive, repeated attempts to justify and tease turning the legal system on the Obama and/or high level individuals from his admin from the President, key Senate leaders, the House minority leader, and saturation-level coverage on Fox News and affiliated arms of right-wing media into a single Trump retweet, though. That definitely was a fair assessment of the state of affairs.

While you're deciding to be subgenius with a library card, I'll note that there is, in fact, a distinction between going after people for real impropriety vs. sham impropriety and distinguishing between the two is, like, the foundation for a healthy society.

P.S. The judge described Flynn as an arguable traitor to the country. What he's opening up is whether he has to defer to the DoJ's new position after a guilty plea has been accepted. That should be kept distinct from your view that the DoJ's new, enhanced position is defensible on the merits.

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honorentheos
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by honorentheos »

Given calling for his political opponents to go to jail has been central to Trump's message, it's easy to be cynical towards someone who talks in a knowing way that something else will result in Trump doing more of what he has always done. It's a bit like Joseph Smith's Civil War prophecy. And since you brought that up in the conversation, well. But feel free to spin it how you will.

It's not clear, but I suspect we are closer regarding the seriousness of it in terms of the reality of what it means outside of the context of this spat on the netz. Trump's presidency has, from day one, represented the pouring out of all the rhetorical sins of the Republican political machine onto the heads of the people. The distrust of government, demonizing Democrats, playing up fears, exploiting economic rifts - it's been said that prior to Trump the Republican party machine viewed it all as levers and buttons to be pushed that helped them politically but much like having nuclear weapons, no one expected them to actually be unleashed. And there is a real, escalating aspect of how Trump and those in his orbit readily resort to calls for seeing the law used to enact revenge fantasies and silence political opponents that could also stop being rhetoric and become reality just as easily. But that is what's concerning about it, that it's a weapon being treated like a toy. It's a genuine concern. I'd argue, one that applies increasingly to Democrats but it isn't anywhere near that scale quite yet even if we see plenty of people <cough> doing it in retaliation towards their own political targets like, I don't know, the AG or the President. Oh, that's different? They really deserve to go to jail? My equating the two is the real problem? Ok.

Anyway, the opportunity for argument opened up by the judge is, by his own words, to allow debate regarding the merits of the John Dehlin's position. Legally, it's almost impossible for him to dismiss the recommendation at the pleasure of the court. The position, defensible or not, is by necessity demanding debate. But you know, those who aren't with you are against you, right? Heh.

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Re: Flynn Walks

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:17 am
Won't that be enough to cover the President so only those below him in the administration have to answer for using illegal tactics to prosecute men they knew were innocent in an effort to overturn the results of the 2016 election.

I'm sure the ends justify any illegal means in the eyes of most Democrats.
There is that "overturning the results of the 2016 election" again. Trump didn't win the popular vote in 2016, and Democrats won big time in 2018. More Americans want Democrats running the country.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

[quote]When both-sideism becomes nihilism[/quote]

Yeah, the foundation of society requires people to make reasonable distinctions between when calling for a person to be jailed is due to actual improper behavior and when it is due to political allegiance. It turns out that people like Ajax have one weird trick to hack the brain of people whose main heuristic for figuring out if something can be dismissed as partisan is whether two sides with power can be presented in disagreement. Just project the corrupt and criminal behavior of their leaders onto their enemies with the thinnest possible veneer of argument and present it as a serious debate for serious people. Worst case scenario, you muddy the waters. Best case scenario, you grease the skates to there being no truth but who holds power.

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ajax18
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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by ajax18 »

Worst case scenario, you muddy the waters. Best case scenario, you grease the skates to there being no truth but who holds power.
It's surreal to see you complaining about the exact same things the right was complaining about under the heel of the Obama administration. Have you watched Hannity recently? I have yet to see any substantive response to what he has shown. Our justice system is very political at the highest levels. Whoever is in power makes the rules. You haven't shown any of this to be untrue. You simply don't talk about the substance of the accusations.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

[quote]It's surreal to see you complaining about the exact same things the right was complaining about under the heel of the Obama administration.[/quote]

My argument is that the right, the modern right that is, relies on pseudo-scandals and bad faith charges of abuse of power to provide cover to engage in real scandals and real abuses of power. An example not quite as close to this story would be the constant drum-beat of voter fraud as blatantly dishonest cover to engage in voter suppression. Part of what creates the room for this to work is a press culture backed by small group of relatively elite news consumers that treat such charges and counter-charges as a partisan bickering match that smart people know how to rise above with the truth being somewhere inbetween.

Re: Hannity, it's very difficult to penetrate the whole alternative universe of facts that Hannity and similar figures develop among their hardcore fanbase, but yeah, there's lots of reply to it if you, I don't know, make even a little effort to look?

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Re: Flynn Walks

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Hannity, it's very difficult to penetrate the whole alternative universe of facts that Hannity and similar figures develop among their hardcore fanbase, but yeah
So Hannity is just making up false facts? Is the pretty much the substance of your argument? The only difference I see is what MSNBC chooses to cover as opposed to Fox. Even with the same clip of Attorney General Barr Chuck Todd was able to spin the meaning of the quote just by selectively editing the interview.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

Yes, Hannity lies constantly. He also misleads by taking quotes of context, drawing false connections by omitting relevant information, and wording material to act as innuendo. He's dishonest in about every way it is possible to be dishonest, but there's just straight up lying is there. He's a very bad propagandist, but lies build upon lies in such away that there's a whole universe that you inhabit where things that are banana pants crazy to the outside world are readily believed because there's some foundational work that's been done to make it seem plausible to you.

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Re: Flynn Walks

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ajax18 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:32 am
Hannity, it's very difficult to penetrate the whole alternative universe of facts that Hannity and similar figures develop among their hardcore fanbase, but yeah
So Hannity is just making up false facts? Is the pretty much the substance of your argument? The only difference I see is what MSNBC chooses to cover as opposed to Fox. Even with the same clip of Attorney General Barr Chuck Todd was able to spin the meaning of the quote just by selectively editing the interview.
You don't watch MSNBC so you really have no clue what MSNBC says beyond what Hannity tells you they say. And like EAllusion just explained to you, Hannity lies and misleads about anything and everything. Not sure why it is so difficult for you to just admit you believe what you want and you listen to those who say what you believe. Its just obvious.

Case in point, the only reason you're complaining about a Chuck Todd interview is because it is plastered all over FOX and that's how you know about it. What you don't get is that when NBC makes mistakes they immediately apologize. Hannity just doubles down on lying when he's caught.

With the Chuck Todd interview, this FOX news defense of Barr is reminiscent of the "Hoax" claim. We were told Trump didn't call the coronavirus a hoax because the evil liberal media didn't quote him in context. Well, context didn't change anything as Barr's contextualize response is just as dumb as the first. He said what he said. But FOX has a way of making people who want there to be a deception, believe there has been a deception because that dovetails with their entire agenda.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

It's not the big picture here, but Chuck Todd is a major figure in promoting a strong right-wing bias in media coverage. A large majority of his guests are Republican operatives. When Obama was President, the argument was that it was necessary to hear from the opposition party. When Republicans swept power, the justification was that the people in power are the primary newsmakers and therefore need to be heard from. He gives them a sizeable platform to promote talking points with mostly ineffectual pushback being the dynamic. He generally makes coverage choices that adopt right-wing media's preferred topics while treating their framing as either the default or part of a serious dispute between sincere co-partisans. It's a false reality. When he occasionally breaks that dynamic, it tends to spill over into national coverage. He's awful at his job in general, but he's awful in a particular away that really plays into PR aims of the Republican party.

Yet, if you pay attention to right-wing media, he's the liberalist liberal who ever did liberal promoting liberal bias in the media. It only ever seems to comes up when some pushback from Todd makes it into the broader news cycle. Part of that is just working the refs because Todd, being a poster-child example of a dupe for false balance, will adjust by being even more deferential, but another part of it seems to be a sincere belief that anything short of the conservative equivalent of state media is inherent liberal bias.

Ajax is bringing it up here because Fox, Brietbart, and friends went off on Todd for quoting Barr out of context by not finishing out his quote where he says history is written by the victors. The "out of context" charge comes from not including the part where he states he thinks he's right and therefore a fair history would deem him right (what else would he say?). That's kinda ridiculous because the latter statement doesn't really change what's bad about the former statement and worth discussing, but that's what worth going full-on culture war about now. Meanwhile, just relentless, non-stop, daily outright deception from his preferred news sources doesn't even register a blip on his radar. And that kinda gives away the game.

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Re: Flynn Walks

Post by EAllusion »

Todd can spend the lead up to the 2018 election having prominent segments on a migrant caravan, bring on Republican politicians who respond to questions by reading off talking point lists, and if Todd so much as meekly challenges something said, no matter how obviously false or misleading, Ajax's bias detector goes "ZOMG! LIBERAL BIAS!" So, despite elevating a non-issue into a major news story and giving people extensive air time to promote lies about it, if Todd so much as says, "There's no evidence for X" bias alarms are sounding in his brain because he personally believes X.

That this whole dynamic is a propaganda boon for Republicans doesn't enter his mind, I don't think, because it's just the water he swims in and doesn't notice it. It's always hard to tell to what extent an Ajax type is in on the game or is just a tool of it.

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