The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by ajax18 »

MeDotOrg wrote:This is a geeky sports question, but in thinking about who is the Greatest of All Time (GOAT) in the NBA, it is always hard to compare guards with centers. So my idea is a 5 on 5 clone game: Clone any player and have him play 5 on 5 against any other player in history. Who wins?

What this does is bring versatility into the equation. Shaquille O'Neil and Spud Webb wash out pretty early. How many different ways can you help a team? Can you guard a big man or a small man? Can you score over a small man and drive around a big man? How well can you perform at all 5 positions?

The other weird intangible: How well would they play together? Michael Jordan could be very unforgiving of mistakes. Is that always a plus when you have five Michael Jordans on the floor? Would Kobe Bryant ever pass to himself?

To my way of thinking, it is probably the tallest player who can still remain versatile. You want a smart, quick player with good footwork. So you think MJ and LeBron, maybe Kevin Durant. Tim Duncan should actually be an interesting choice. I still remember when Magic Johnson was a rookie guard, he scored 40 points playing CENTER (Kareem was out with a migraine) to win the championship against Julius Erving's 76'ers.

Put a gun to my head and I still say Michael Jordan wins. But please, be a contrarian and post your own candidate.


Assuming there were objective by the book officiating, a team of five Larry Birds would win every time. But it would be a complex team game full of accurate shooting, position team defense, box outs, and very few dunks. I doubt the current NBA fan base would want to watch it.

This thread makes me consider what it might be like to play basketball with a bunch of Democrats. I imagine people like Michael Moore clapping for the ball to fire up three point attempts with FG percentage no higher than 3%, rarely crossing half court and being for the most part unwilling to play any kind of defense.
Last edited by ajax18 on Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:Who got saddled with Laettner?

I misremembered. I went back and read the play by play in the article and Laettner was on Magic's squad along with Barkley, Chris Mullin and Robinson. Jordan had his go-to Pippen along with Ewing, Bird and Malone. Stockton and Drexler were hurt and resting through practise.
Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Go home, Ajax.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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honorentheos wrote:I won't disagree with any of the above. I just figured if he had to defend not putting Jordan on his team AND argue defense beats offense then the one position in your starting 5s I thought made a reasonable case is at starting center.

In all honesty it seems to me Markk has a bias against being a good basketball player v. being a hatchet man roleplayer. It suggests how he may play himself, all elbows and body checks...;) Since he keeps asking if you even lift bro, errr, play I mean.

Just giving you crap, Markk.

LOL...that’s part of the fun in playing Basketball, is talking smack. I played a lot and was a gym rat. I was a physical guard that usually had to play underneath because I was physical. I could score but a streak shooter, not a pure shooter. I pride myself a bit in that I could hang with the brothers, and play D...to a certain level anyways. We had some very good gym’s in the inland empire. The legend of my era was “Sir Jamelot”....his real name was Gerry Wright and he went on to play for USC and Iowa...but went into the service instead of the NBA...he is one of those what if’s...he played like Dominic...

There was some classic summer pic up at Loma Linda University gym with the likes of Gerry, Steve Johnson (Portland), and Reggie and Cheryl Miller, and other pros and future pros, staying in shape in the off seasons. I just watched those games...I played on the “C” courts, they were on the A+ When they came, and hacks like me weren't allowed to possibly hurt them.

I actually played against Wright’s CIF Championship high school team, less Gerry and another star they had, at of all places the cultural hall of our ward...and we beat them...but we were 10 years older and I think they were freaked out by playing so many clean cut white guys and me (long hair). If Gerry and the other guy would have been there they would have smoked us though, they were off playing college ball.

Steve Johnson played Jabbar maybe better than anyone in NBA history..he was a real journeyman pro. They had some classic matchups, and fights.

Every team needs a Green, Rambis, Carr, Mahorn, Rodman...and on the teams I played on a Markk.

What is funny, in city leagues there were fewer physical “ love taps” as compared to church basketbrawl.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:Hakeem and Jabbar are pretty close and overlap closely in skill-set. I like Jabbar more because Jabbar is a little faster and can generate quick, high % offense whereas Hakeem is more reliant on time-consuming post moves. I find the latter unacceptable when there is so much offensive talent on the floor to work with. I'd run close to zero traditional post offense ala modern NBA offenses. Jabbar is a significantly better passer and is one of the better passing big men of all time. I think this is at a premium in your front court when moving the ball around is going to be very important with so many gifted offensive players running around. On the offensive side, what I imagine Jabbar doing is presenting a high % threat 12-15 ft. in. If a mismatch is there for a close to automatic bucket, take it, but otherwise look away. Any pass to him should result in a quick dribble and very high % shot or a fast pass out. Otherwise, Jabbar has the body and speed to run complex screens fine.

[Again, we're talking prime Milwaukee Bucks Jabbar, not his late Lakers' years.]

Rebounding is similar once you control for era differences. Jabbar is slightly better at peak. Rebounding is the opposite of passing ability in that its value is much lower because fewer rebounding opportunities are going to be generated with so much efficient offense happening.

Hakeem is a better defender, but the difference is marginal and probably won't matter much. Hakeem is probably the second best defensive center of all time depending on how you view Russell and Jabbar is somewhere between 3 and 5. I'd probably put him at 4 behind Wilt Chamberlain, but slightly ahead of David Robinson. The gap between them is small enough that I don't care. For the above reasons, I'd sacrifice a little defensive difference for a better style of play.

All that said, I find Hakeem to be at least a defensible choice. It's close. Hakeem didn't use it because of the era he played in, but he showed a lot of potential ability to shoot. You could probably use him as a better version of what Embiid is today and get away with it. I'm still going with Kareem for the above reasons.

Markk's outright bad picks are players like Rodman and Thomas. Maybe he lived in Detroit in the 80's. Idk.

The real issue I see with Markk's team as far as Hakeem is concerned is that there are going to be times when having a prototypical center on the floor isn't the best strategy. Hakeem and Shaq double-up there. He didn't seem to plan to go smaller outside of Bobby Jones, but Bobby Jones isn't an ideal sub at that spot either. Overall, Markk seems to massively undervalue shooting ability and skill versatility at multiple positions. Because of this, his team is so much easier to gameplan.



LOL Shaq and Akeem prototype? Have you ever seen Shaq play in person, up close? He he demands a double team.

Akeem changed the way the position was played...you have no idea what you are talking about.

My team aside from those team is a small team...what are you talking about...if I have a weakness it is I am two small in a pack’em in half court game.

Go back and look at my starting line up? I don’t have a real seven footer in my starting line up. Akeem is 6’11 at best.

Here is the game plan, it is very easy as you wrote, against my starting line up...get ready to run and try to stop us.

Jabbar and Akeem are nowhere near the same...nobody is like Jabbar, and the GOAT in IMO. Akeem has wheels for a big man, and can put it on the floor, and play straight up defense, not post just post defense. He can put in on the floor like James Worthy with quickness and take it to the hole like James. Shaq said in his career, Akeem was the only player he never figured out defensively.

Rodman, seven time NBA rebound leader on great teams...and multiple defensive player of th eye are awards...I’ll take that every time for a team.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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honorentheos wrote:I misremembered. I went back and read the play by play in the article and Laettner was on Magic's squad along with Barkley, Chris Mullin and Robinson. Jordan had his go-to Pippen along with Ewing, Bird and Malone. Stockton and Drexler were hurt and resting through practise.


Laettner was one of the greatest college players ever...but was his own worst enemy...he was on the Dan Patrick Show w few months ago...and talks about it a bit...interesting.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
LOL Shaq and Akeem prototype? Have you ever seen Shaq play in person, up close? He he demands a double team.


Yes, I've seen Shaq play in person a bunch of times. That's neither here nor there.

I am not saying they are average. I am saying they fill center position in the prototypical way. That means a very tall person who plays offense primarily around the low post and baseline with an available back to the basket game while also playing defense in the same area with primary responsibility for interior defense of the basket.

There's a reason that there are few centers of this type in the NBA anymore, and it's not because of lack of tall people. Shaq or Hakeem are going to get their butt dragged all over the court in fast lineups that play a stretch frontcourt. Hakeem is not faster than Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Kevin Garnett pinging around. Olajuwon had good close out speed for a center who generally liked to look for the block down low, not for anyone. He’s going to be worn down and your bench isn’t well suited to the pace and space game. You offered yourself no flexibility to deal with this. It's like you think Hakeem is Giannis.

Shaq is a dominant post player close to the basket. He will likely be able to muscle his way to two points at a decent rate while drawing in fouls. You don't even seem capable of acknowledging my point regarding points per possession and comparing what's going on at the other end, so I'm not sure what can be said. You're convinced you know so much more about basketball, but talk about it in a very superficial way and don't seem to be picking up on the fact that I keep referring to metrics and sources that show a relatively sophisticated understanding. This is occurring while you think I'm not aware that Reggie Miller shot threes. Good grief, man.

That I'd suggest only keeping one traditional center on the roster in an era where teams are increasingly going with zero is not some shocker.

My team aside from those team is a small team...what are you talking about...if I have a weakness it is I am two small in a pack’'em in half court game.


Your team is small, especially off the bench, but it isn't necessarily faster. That's a problem. My starters are faster than yours 1:1 at 3 of 5 positions and around parity in the other two. You're not going to win by out-running them because there isn't this speed gap that you think exists. It's as though you forgot that Curry and Jordan are quick.

Here is the game plan, it is very easy as you wrote, against my starting line up...get ready to run and try to stop us.

Running is a terrible game plan when transition opportunities are going to be way down due to all the high efficiency scoring going on. It's pretty darn hard to run after a made basket. Players who routinely scored a very high % of the time in the face a lot of defensive attention are now going to getting much less defensive attention by sheer necessity. This is going to lead to a lot fewer misses than you'd see in a typical NBA game.

It's like you think this will be a game at the Y. But yeah, I'll take my chances with your plan to try to run on players like Micheal Jordan, Kevin Garnett, and Lebron James. Have fun.

Akeem has wheels for a big man.


Jabbar was very fast as a big man in his mid 20's. He got up and down the court. Again, we're not talking about Lakers Jabbar here. Old-man - how is this guy still playing? - Kareem kept pace with Hakeem/Sampson surprisingly well in the 80's and that's after he lost about 5 steps. Kareem also lit them up in his late 30's, if I recall.

Hakeem did not have overwhelming speed at his height. What he had going for him was god-tier agility for his height.

Kareem was better than or at parity with Hakeem at every aspect of the game except defense while having a few inches on him. As I said, I don't think the marginal defense difference is worth going Hakeem. It's not a terrible choice, so I don't take much issue with it. Hakeem is a defensible option. Shaq is probably the player you should cut.

and can put it on the floor, and play straight up defense, not post just post defense. He can put in on the floor like James Worthy with quickness and take it to the hole like James.


If you take Hakeem's setup post game away from him, he's more ordinary than before. He can do other things that you point out, but you're fooling yourself if you think his post-game is an after-thought to what he is bringing to the table. I don't think setting up dream shakes is where you want to be with all time greats running around everywhere, so this makes Hakeem suffer by comparison. I like Jabbar because he can catch and get a very difficult to guard shot off quickly as his main way of generating offense. He's an unconventional jump-shooter first.

Shaq said in his career, Akeem was the only player he never figured out defensively.
Yeah, Hakeem worked Shaq over when Shaq was young. No one is saying that Hakeem is a bad player. Since no one figured out the sky hook except kinda Wilt, I'm going to go ahead and assume Shaq wouldn't have either.

Rodman, seven time NBA rebound leader on great teams...and multiple defensive player of th eye are awards...I’ll take that every time for a team.


Imagine if you could have someone who is in the neighborhood of Rodman at rebounding, probably a better defender, taller, faster, and - get this - can reliably hit open and semi-open shots if needed.

It turns out you can. And you stubbornly refuse to take it.

Players like Rodman being on the floor helps solve the "how do you hide Curry on defense" problem fast.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

Here's a thought for you Markk. Where does Andre Drummond rank in today's NBA?

Why?

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
Markk wrote:
LOL Shaq and Akeem prototype? Have you ever seen Shaq play in person, up close? He he demands a double team.


Yes, I've seen Shaq play in person a bunch of times. That's neither here nor there.

I am not saying they are average. I am saying they fill center position in the prototypical way. That means a very tall person who plays offense primarily around the low post and baseline with an available back to the basket game while also playing defense in the same area with primary responsibility for interior defense of the basket.

There's a reason that there are few centers of this type in the NBA anymore, and it's not because of lack of tall people. Shaq or Hakeem are going to get their butt dragged all over the court in fast lineups that play a stretch frontcourt. Hakeem is not faster than Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Kevin Garnett pinging around. Olajuwon had good close out speed for a center who generally liked to look for the block down low, not for anyone. You offered yourself no flexibility to deal with this. It's like you think Hakeem is Giannis.

Shaq is a dominant post player close to the basket. He will likely be able to muscle his way to two points at a decent rate while drawing in fouls. You don't even seem capable of acknowledging my point regarding points per possession and comparing what's going on at the other end, so I'm not sure what can be said. You're convinced you know so much more about basketball, but talk about it in a very superficial way and don't seem to be picking up on the fact that I keep referring to metrics and sources that show a relatively sophisticated understanding. This is occurring while you think I'm not aware that Reggie Miller shot threes. Good grief, man.

That I'd suggest only keeping one traditional center on the roster in an era where teams are increasingly going with zero is not some shocker.

My team aside from those team is a small team...what are you talking about...if I have a weakness it is I am two small in a pack’''em in half court game.


Your team is small, especially off the bench, but it isn't necessarily faster. That's a problem. My starters are faster than yours 1:1 at 3 of 5 positions and around parity in the other two. You're not going to win by out-running them because there isn't this speed gap that you think exists. It's as though you forgot that Curry and Jordan are quick.

Here is the game plan, it is very easy as you wrote, against my starting line up...get ready to run and try to stop us.

Running is a terrible game plan when transition opportunities are going to be way down due to all the high efficiency scoring going on. It's pretty darn hard to run after a made basket. Players who routinely scored a very high % of the time in the face a lot of defensive attention are now going to getting much less defensive attention by sheer necessity. This is going to lead to a lot fewer misses than you'd see in a typical NBA game.

It's like you think this will be a game at the Y. But yeah, I'll take my chances with your plan to try to run on players like Micheal Jordan, Kevin Garnett, and Lebron James. Have fun.

Akeem has wheels for a big man.


Jabbar was very fast as a big man in his mid 20's. He got up and down the court. Again, we're not talking about Lakers Jabbar here. Old-man - how is this guy still playing? - Kareem kept pace with Hakeem/Sampson surprisingly well in the 80's and that's after he lost about 5 steps. Kareem also lit them up in his late 30's, if I recall.

Hakeem did not have overwhelming speed at his height. What he had going for him was god-tier agility for his height.

Kareem was better than or at parity with Hakeem at every aspect of the game except defense while having a few inches on him. As I said, I don't think the marginal defense difference is worth going Hakeem. It's not a terrible choice, so I don't take much issue with it. Shaq is probably the player you should cut.

and can put it on the floor, and play straight up defense, not post just post defense. He can put in on the floor like James Worthy with quickness and take it to the hole like James.


If you take Hakeem's setup post game away from him, he's more ordinary than before. He can do other things that you point out, but you're fooling yourself if you think his post-game is an after-thought to what he is bringing to the table. I don't think setting up dream shakes is where you want to be with all time greats running around everywhere, so this makes Hakeem suffer by comparison. I like Jabbar because he can catch and get a very difficult to guard shot off quickly as his main way of generating offense. He's an unconventional jump-shooter first.

Shaq said in his career, Akeem was the only player he never figured out defensively.
Yeah, Hakeem worked Shaq over when Shaq was young. No one is saying that Hakeem is a bad player. Since no one figured out the sky hook except kinda Wilt, I'm going to go ahead and assume Shaq wouldn't have either.

Rodman, seven time NBA rebound leader on great teams...and multiple defensive player of th eye are awards...I’ll take that every time for a team.


Imagine if you could have someone who is in the neighborhood of Rodman at rebounding, probably a better defender, taller, faster, and - get this - can reliably hit open and semi-open shots if needed.

It turns out you can. And you stubbornly refuse to take it.

Players like Rodman being on the floor helps solve the "how do you hide Curry on defense" problem fast.


I think you are “book learned” on basketball like sports writers that never played sports...there commentary is typical on the negative in they don’t understand the game.

You said my team wasn’t small, now you say they are but slow? Magic and Lebron are the two greatest ever on leading out a break...what are you talking about...Pippin, Miller, and Jones dominate on the break, at both ends, and Akeem is unstoppable in finishing.


The bottom line is, I have a running team, that has some of the greatest. Specialized role players in NBA history, and you have greats players named on a piece of paper, that IMO are lacking the role players and specialist that do the dirty work and thinks necessary to win, and get the scoring stars the ball.

I will assume you never played much based on your not wanting to comment on my repeated question...the only reason I ask, is that it appears you never played much and think rebounding, and strong defense are overrated.


Drummond is a very good player...tough inside and can rebound, and with he and Blake the piston are on their way up. It has nothing to do with Steph being punked by my defensive guards...
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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It might be the fancy book learnin’ talking, but being smaller doesn’t automatically mean you are faster. Giannis is around 7 feet, but I would bet on him in a foot race with Markk. Michael Jordan is faster than many players shorter than him. I went with height *and* speed if I want it. I didn’t say your team wasn’t small. I said they can’t play a small ball lineup without going too small. I don’t know which one of those terms confuses you, but it is a straightforward assertion. What does your small ball lineup game plan look like?

Magic Johnson is a great transition player. Having the speed and agility of a slow point guard while being able to see and pass over everyone is a big part of why. But he was an average defender and well below average against quick guards like Curry.

I have arguably the better defensive team you doofus. You picked Reggie Miller over Jordan, which is a heck of a thing to do if you think defense is all important. I have not said defense doesn’t matter. My team is loaded with some of the best defenders ever. I have said that being a good defender while contributing little on the other side of the ball is not enough. Nowitzki is my only straight up hole on defense no matter the situation, but he’s waiting on the bench to complete a 3 point line up of death if I need to win with range shooting everywhere.

My team has players capable of filling roles within a variety of cohesive offensive and defensive strategies with a focus on ball movement. It does not have people who were “role players” in their NBA career because they were too good for that and it would be a waste of their talent. The consequence of this is I have more skill at positions that create more mismatches. My Dennis Rodman is taller, faster, is able to pass extremely well for a big and has a good offensive game. I get this for the low, low price of being a little worse on the boards.

I haven’t discussed how much basketball I have played because it is irrelevant. Your bragging about it is just giving insight into why you overvalue hatchet men.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I think we're ignoring the fact that you can still win games with Celtic white man basketball. White are clearly slower and poorer jumpers due to their shorter limbs and longer torsos. But this isn't all there is to winning a basketball game as evidenced by the lousy performance of some of the USA's "dream teams" in the Olympics recently. It's also shown in the success of Duke vs. much better athletes from UNLV or even Rick Majerus's University of Utah teams (with no NBA level talent) that took out a North Carolina team stacked with both Antwan Jamison and Vince Carter in the NCAA tournament. Unless you grow up in Europe, a young white kid will rarely be afforded the opportunity to play this kind of basketball, at least not in the US. The NBA decided a while back that it wouldn't sell tickets which I think is ironic because the NBAs mass appeal, strategy, and diversity of style has in fact declined since the days of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. I'll admit that I'm not up to date on my basketball knowledge as I once was. I haven't followed basketball closely in years. I have been encouraged a bit by the Golden State dynasty that seems to add some diversity to a boring monolithic league of one freakish athletes per team, clear out triangle offense and devoid of any kind of low post offense. But their politics has been such a turn off, I doubt we'll see basketball pick up popularity in the fly over states again. Thankfully my kids aren't beholden to state funded secondary school and collegiate sports. If you have money, you can still afford to choose a better game.

I'm just curious how many of you have ever actually played competitive basketball. I'm not saying that means you don't know anything about the game but I do get the impression it's just something you've watched on television or perhaps even in an arena without having any actual playing experience. You can know a lot about it but there's no real substitute for experience when it comes to injuries, how your body feels after the grueling practices, being driven by a coach, hearing the crowd after you make a big play. It looks like you're getting paid millions of dollars to play a game. But let me say that when sports get that intensely competitive, most of the time it's not fun.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by honorentheos »

Here's the two lineups:

Point Guard
Markk: Magic Johnson, EAllusion: Steph Curry

Shooting Guard
Markk: Reggie Miller, EAllusion: Michael Jordan

Small Forward
Markk: Scottie Pippin, EAllusion: LaBron James

Power Forward
Markk: LaBron James, EAllusion: Kevin Garnett

Center
Markk: Hakeem Olajuwon, EAllusion: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

The only repeat being LaBron, but with Markk moving him to power Forward, if one overlooks the clone on the court the starting five seem reasonably good match ups. Magic and Curry are different kinds of point guards, and both require their team to back them on defense for different reasons. I don't like Markk's idea of switching Miller on Curry (we'll pretend the whole Isaiah thing didn't happen) and putting Magic on Jordan. Keeping Magic on Curry shortens his shots due to the height difference and prime Magic can keep up with Curry while outplaying him when the ball changes sides. Jordan will not be stopped regularly but it's better to let Miller backed up by Pippin, James and Hakeem take that job than pull Magic off Steph.

I am not sure what to think about James in the 4, but thinking more about it I could see it with Hakeem being the presence he is at center both offensively and defensively. Two shooting guards with amazing instincts and ball movement would be fun to watch. Garnet and Jabar will be murder in the paint, though. That's a tough offensive combination.

It seems cliché but on reflection I think Markk would fall because of Jordan not being on his team.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by honorentheos »

Ajax, go home.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

Magic would struggle to keep Curry in front of him, especially with the passing angles he’d be responsible for shutting off. The Lakers kept him off quick guards. Byron Scott would guard Curry by necessity if it was Showtime Lakers vs. Warriors. Magic is quick for a dude his height, but he’s not that quick. Even with his height he was a meh defender.

The bigger problem Curry presents is the pull he has on team defense. If you abandon the notion of help, then he’s going to roast Magic from deep or blow past him again and again. If you do the smarter thing and back Magic up, all of a sudden you have offensive sets that free up someone else in a favorable spot regularly. Jordan is an impossible guard in the best of circumstances. It’s a practice drill if he’s playing shadow 4 on 3 where none of the other players can be left open.

Michael is probably going on Magic, which leaves Curry for Miller. I am probably using the zone concepts Brad Stevens used to hide IT3 in that situation, but it’s not a great thing. I think I win that battle of efficiency, but if the height difference is too much, I have a bench for that.

The alternative is to let Curry guard Magic, try to force some turnovers on the dribble, give him space from deep, and live with the results. That’s also probably doable in relative terms.

I like Magic too. Fairly ideal passer for an all time team. He’s on my bench. I think he has some situational strengths and weaknesses you have to test out. Most of all, I like the idea of using his height to punish teams that aren’t built to defend it.

Curry is ahead of him on the depth chart because I need a threat from deep to stretch the defense and to score at reasonable efficiency.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by honorentheos »

The Curry/Jordan combination is probably unguardable. Someone is getting open, good looks or easy drives off trying to do it. That clinched it for me on why I think Markk not including Jordan is the deciding factor.

ETA: That brings up what would happen if he had, and we had Jordan v. Jordan. Would their competitive nature's come into play in bad ways? Such as one needing to shut the other down so badly they let the game go for a one on one vendetta each possession? I think he needed to win more than he needed to prove himself one on one, though he needed both like most of us need to breath, so maybe not. Or, not for long anyway.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

The only argument I can see for leaving Jordan off an all-time team is if your roster was almost entirely comprised of elite shooters. Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Larry Bird, etc. I can see trying to win with eFG% from overwhelming 3 point talent. Maaayyyybe you leave Jordan off your oops all the threes mathball team.

The second you allow a perimeter player who does not fit this mold on your team and it isn’t Jordan, you got too cute. Congrats, you played yourself.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by MeDotOrg »

I think the most physically talented player in the history of the NBA was Wilt Chamberlain.
Standing at 7’1” you wouldn’t think someone of that size had a vertical jump of 48 inches.

It isn’t just his jumping prowess that was great he was an exceptional all-around athlete running the 100 yard dash in 10.9 seconds, doing a triple jump of over 50 feet, throwing a shot put over 56 feet and winning the high jump 3 consecutive years in the Big Eight conference in the NCAAs.


Michael Jordan's vertical leap was 46 inches, but he wasn't 7'1". Wilt's vertical leap was 2 inches higher than any other player in the history of the NBA.

His record average of 50 points a game in '61-'62 is one of the awe-inspiring efforts in sports. Think of any NBA player in history scoring forty points in a night knowing that they need to score sixty points the next night to maintain their scoring average.

Wilt's career began at a time when he could totally dominate a slower and smaller league. It made for incredibly gaudy stats that will probably never be broken, but I think it ultimately made Wilt a poorer player. If there was one area where I think Chamberlain lags, it was bringing his competitive fire every night. He wasn't like Bill Russel, Michael Jordan or Larry Bird. (Kevin McHale tells my favorite Larry Bird story.)

I think if Wilt had entered the league 10 years later his stats may not have been as awesome, but the level of competition would have made him a better player.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

Wilt probably didn't have a vert of 48". That number derives from claims he made about himself. That would put his head consistently the above rim on jumps. That did not happen. Based on footage of gameplay, it probably was closer to 40" at the high end.

For a person at his height, this is still insane.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

MeDotOrg wrote:.

His record average of 50 points a game in '61-'62 is one of the awe-inspiring efforts in sports. Think of any NBA player in history scoring forty points in a night knowing that they need to score sixty points the next night to maintain their scoring average.


If you adjust for pace, Michael Jordan's peak offensive seasons are more impressive. One way of doing this is to calculate how many points a player scored against a baseline of 100 possessions per game - points per 100 possessions. Jordan's pace adjusted ppg numbers are better. I think Jordan's best season is something like 46. My back of the napkin calculation for this season of Wilt's is 38.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

If you are getting into the nitty gritty of it, my team is also a better free throw shooting team. You almost have to pretend that coaches wouldn't play hack Rodman and Shaq, though they totally would. Team EAllusion is hiring coach Pop, and he gets it.

At first, I thought Markk's "what does an old men at the Y team need" approach to team-construction would appreciate this fundamental aspect of the game. Then I realized with all his calling people pussies, he probably thinks calling fouls is for losers.

For his “do you even rebound , bro?” argument, my starting 5 has a better rebounder at 4 of 5 positions. That he has better rebounding at the 1 probably is not a big deal even on his own terms. But he does have Rodman on the bench, so I guess congrats are in order.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by EAllusion »

I was looking for some articles that spell out how Curry affects defenses. There's a bunch, but I wanted video examples to illustrate the points. There's fewer of those than I would've liked. Here's a decent example:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/142 ... ching-ball

I found an article that uses SportVU data to mathematically break down how Curry disrupts the geometry of the game. I expect Markk to dismiss that by shouting NEERRDDSS!, but the short of it is that he expands the square footage of the court the defense needs to cover by about 25% (!!!) compared to league average, which naturally leads to players having to run longer straight lines to catch up to the ball, which naturally tests their ability to accomplish that.

The easiest way to exploit that is to run some screens from about 35 feet out from the basket, which is nearly an automatic virtual four on three for the roll person if Curry's range is respected. If Curry's range isn't respected, it turns out he buries 3's from that far out if his man sags around 50% of the time. That's 1.5 points per possession, which for the Warrior's pace would be around 156 points a game. So the smart plan is to respect his range and live with a possible virtual 4 on 3 again and again. This is what happens in live games.

Only Curry isn't running that with players like Jordan. I ran a simulation of that, and this is the result I got:

Image

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