The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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moksha wrote:
EAllusion wrote:Importing older guards into the modern NBA is tough, ...

They would pick up their game by necessity. If Bob Cousy showed up for freshman high school basketball in 2013, he would still be a star.


Oh, I don't know about that. One reason modern players are better is because they have access to better training and nutrition. Old players would get that too, so maybe it's a wash. Another reason is that modern players are recruited from a deeper pool of talent so the relative competition improves. Bob Cousy can't do anything about that. And another reason on top of that is that offensive and defensive strategy has evolved and has different skill demands. Bob Cousy by modern standards would be too bad of a shooter to even see the floor consistently. Would he be a good shooter if that's what was asked of him? We don't know. The talent for it is something different than what was asked of him.

Frazier has the body type and skill set that translates, so he’s probably fine. Cousy is dubious.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
I picked Michael Jordan because the dude could ball, not because he was on a team that won 6 championships.


LOL sure...because he could ball, is why he won 6 rings...the are mutual. You can't be the GOAT, without championships. Whether it be Ruth, Brady, or Jordon.

And I never said I picked players because of rings, but that rings are a sign of their greatness.


It’s not tennis or golf Markk. It’s a team sport. Individual contribution isn’t enough to win consistently. It is not Charles Barkley or John Stockton’s fault the Bulls got Scottie Pippen.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Ethan Happ is like a baby Kevin McHale. Same body. Same advanced post moves. Same strong defense. Same big man passing skills.

Kevin McHale is a hall of famer. Happ was one of the best players in college basketball, but will be lucky to even make an NBA team after being undrafted. He is probably going to Europe.

What gives? The fact that Happ is a bad shooter - at the PF spot - and generates his offense from time consuming post moves is not good enough anymore. Teams ain’t got time for that.

The game evolves and makes cross era comparisons difficult at times.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
Because they played against them, and beat most of them...As as GM he did not play against those he drafted...he did pick . That is a Dumb comparison.

Not shooting for range is not a liability, Michael Jordan was a horrible 3 point shooter, and is considered the GOAT by most folks. Isaiah averaged 4 more assists per game that Steph,plays better defense, and that is what I want on my team. I chose a running team, that can play a half court game if the have to. You chose a puss, that cries when he is covered man to man, that is your choice. And your team is slow and big, with no role players to compliment a system.
Alternatively, analysis of basketball and the ability to play it aren’t identical skills.

Jordan wasn’t a horrible 3 point shooter. He wasn’t good, but he wasn’t horrible. He avoided shooting from distance because his 3 point game was bad compared to what else he could be doing. His 3 point shooting is a liability too in this context, but he is also a player that at his peak averaged in modern pace terms over 40 points a game on 53ish % shooting while entire defenses were geared to stop him. Throw in his defense and that’s a trade-off I am taking. Thomas doesn’t give you anything like that. In all time terms, Thomas’s offense isn’t good.

Curry is cocky and whiny, but this notion you have that he melts to tough defense just isn’t correct. Curry is Curry because he hits difficult shots as if they weren’t and easier stuff like it’s shooting practice. You also still don’t seem to grasp how his presence on the court shifts defenses to make life easier for everyone else. It’s actually *because* his defenders try to stay glued to him that other players get good looks. If there was a such a thing as a shadow assist, he’d lead the league again and again. Your belief that he just needs someone tough to stick to him really misunderstands what is going on. If Curry can walk a defender off the floor, that’s really bad for the defense. A lot of those easy layups the Warriors seem to get are the result of Curry’s man being terrified of giving him space.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:Why did I pick Isaiah over Kidd...because he is better. That is a dumb question.

Kidd is better than Thomas at every aspect of the game you cite in favor of Thomas as a reason to include him. In particular, he was a much better defender in his prime. Every advanced stat available to measure this claim comes down in favor of Kidd. Kidd was also a more versatile defender. Kidd’s peak offensive impact, particularly in the half court, is a little below Thomas, but he’s also a much better rebounder, which you put a premium on. For what you want, Kidd can almost be thought of as an evolutionary Thomas. I don’t want Kidd, but I think you do.

Of course, if you go Kidd, then why not Chris Paul? That’s obviously better. And if you go Paul, maybe Stockton is the better option? You’re being presented with a gateway here.

Walt Frazier makes a ton of sense for what you like and is a defensible inclusion. Thomas is not. Are you by chance James Dolan?

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
I picked Michael Jordan because the dude could ball, not because he was on a team that won 6 championships.

Markk wrote:LOL sure...because he could ball, is why he won 6 rings...the are mutual. You can't be the GOAT, without championships. Whether it be Ruth, Brady, or Jordon.
And I never said I picked players because of rings, but that rings are a sign of their greatness.

EAllusion wrote:It’s not tennis or golf Markk. It’s a team sport. Individual contribution isn’t enough to win consistently. It is not Charles Barkley or John Stockton’s fault the Bulls got Scottie Pippen.



LOL...that's why I picked a team based on having a chemistry, and players with certain roles biased on their strong points....your team was picked by yourself on individual merits, not as a cohesive unit like I did. You have some dream and misconception they will shoot 80% from the field.

You have no idea what you have even said.

I picked some of the best role player ever, to compliment some of the greatest players ever.

Again I would run your off the court. Your idea that good defense does not win championships is not defend-able...pun intended.

You have clearly shown you don't understand the game, did/do you play much, coach or ref?

You were mistaken ( had no idea about this recently happening in the playoffs) about Curry whining about defenses, Miller playing down low. You got the two Isaiah Thomas' mixed up...and more like rebounding and defense is not that important.

I tell you what...you pick a running team and I'll pick a half court pounding team.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I didn’t list the best 12 players ever Markk. I picked a cohesive team that has clear angles it would try to win with. Not to be harsh, I just did it with a better grasp of what wins games. You seem to be stuck somewhere between 1988 and a land of lazy sports cliches.

I have the best defensive PF and SG ever starting. My SF probably is second all time behind a player I included on the bench. My center is top 5 all time in defense. I avoided some objectively better offensive players for this configuration. The main criticism I would expect for my team is that it leans too much on defense and would do better with more 3 point shooting. The idea that my team doesn’t care about defense is bizarre. I do understand that the cliché that defense wins championships is a dumb cliché’, but also get that point differential is the ultimate goal and being good at stopping is a valid way to accomplish that. I just refuse to put a relative offensive black hole on the floor. If I can pressure the defense at every point, I will do that.

Whining doesn’t make your play bad. LeBron James is not bad or “weak” because he whines a lot either. It might offend your sensibilities, but it has nothing to do with basketball skill. Some players just are just whiny. Curry was great in the playoffs. He scored nearly 30 points game on nearly 55 eFG%. Whining didn’t seem to get in the way of that. It’s not his fault God murdered his teams’ ligaments. Thomas - Mr. Clutch playoff performance - never came close to that kind of playoff performance offensively.

The idea that your team is the running team is the weirdest thing of all. Do you have any idea how fast those two teams are? My starting lineup is faster and my bench is designed to put an even faster lineup in while your bench is pretty slow. The roster I went with is dotted with some of best of the best transition guys. What’s your small running lineup look like?

I didn’t mix up Thomas with IT3. I think you mean I thought you were referring to Clyde Drexler when you were referring to Walt Frazier. I immediately corrected that when you clarified. These mistakes happen. You just did it yourself it seems.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Quick Caveat - Bill Russell has a legitimate claim to being the best defensive player of all time at any position. Certainly if you look at players relative to their timeperiod he is. It's not even close if you don't try to think about how he'd be against the better competition of later eras.

If you put Russell in a modern lineup, he grades out better as a 4 while playing some small C. So it might be more accurate to say that Garnett is the second best defensive PF ever in his prime.

But wait, there's more. Tim Duncan, who happened to play at the same time as Garnett, also has a strong case for being the best defensive PF ever. He's neck and neck with Garnett. In raw numbers, Garnett's best defensive season is better than Duncan's best defensive season, but Duncan sustained slightly better defense than Garnett over multi-year stretches. But raw numbers don't tell the whole story. Duncan was a better interior defender than Garnett. His post and defense around the basket was flat better. Garnett, on the other hand, had more range on the court and was a better help defender. Garnett also had more versatility and was a lockdown defender against multiple positions and body types. It might be wrong to think in terms of one being absolutely better than the other. It's situational.

I think for what an all-time team needs, it's fair to say Garnett is better. You want that range and versatility given the kind of players that'll have to be defended. Besides, at least to start, I went with Jabbar at the 5 and he was just as good as Duncan at interior defense in his prime.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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This thread sent me back to watching clips of the '92 dream team. I don't know if there was ever a more enjoyable moment in my basketball watching career.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:Quick Caveat - Bill Russell has a legitimate claim to being the best defensive player of all time at any position. Certainly if you look at players relative to their timeperiod he is. It's not even close if you don't try to think about how he'd be against the better competition of later eras.

If you put Russell in a modern lineup, he grades out better as a 4 while playing some small C. So it might be more accurate to say that Garnett is the second best defensive PF ever in his prime.

But wait, there's more. Tim Duncan, who happened to play at the same time as Garnett, also has a strong case for being the best defensive PF ever. He's neck and neck with Garnett. In raw numbers, Garnett's best defensive season is better than Duncan's best defensive season, but Duncan sustained slightly better defense than Garnett over multi-year stretches. But raw numbers don't tell the whole story. Duncan was a better interior defender than Garnett. His post and defense around the basket was flat better. Garnett, on the other hand, had more range on the court and was a better help defender. Garnett also had more versatility and was a lockdown defender against multiple positions and body types. It might be wrong to think in terms of one being absolutely better than the other. It's situational.

I think for what an all-time team needs, it's fair to say Garnett is better. You want that range and versatility given the kind of players that'll have to be defended. Besides, at least to start, I went with Jabbar at the 5 and he was just as good as Duncan at interior defense in his prime.



Your team is not a pure running team...at all...to run you have to play defense and defend like mad men, and that take role players to do the dirty work.

Have you ever played, coached or ref’d?

Garnett would fit well on my team...I thought hard about him also...Duncan while maybe the best and smartest PF ever, and a great center also...wouldn’t, in that he is best suited for a controlled game.

Again if forced into a half court game.....you have no answer for shaq, and Akeem is maybe the best all round center ever, that can play the 4.
And Lebron as a big 3 and Rodman doing his thing. And magic and Miller/West at the 1 and 2. That is a very good half court offense.


You said that Thomas was very alarming small...he is 6’1”...the other is 5’-8/9”...it was obvious....you also showed ignorance by saying Miller was primarily a down low player...when in fact he may be the greatest shooter of all time...in fact he was Steph’s model as a shooter.

If Miller played today, which he probably still could give you 10 minutes, the guy is in incredible shape...and with the no touching rules, and his size and length over other guards, it would be Steph on steroids that can play defense, and is no where near a puss, but maybe the most competitive player ever to play.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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honorentheos wrote:This thread sent me back to watching clips of the '92 dream team. I don't know if there was ever a more enjoyable moment in my basketball watching career.


Barkley and Jordan where amazing. That was fun...

What is todays Dream team of current players? I have to think about that one.

LeBron, AD, Harding, Westbrook,the Greek freak...is a pretty good starting 5?

I doubt if Steph would make the team...:) (for EAllusion)
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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You seem to dislike Curry for personal reasons so that will probably mean EAllusion is going to end up with some of your money before this is over. ;)

Honestly, I think that was a once in a century event. The best of the very best being allowed to play as seasoned pros for the very first time against world competition that has come a long way...it was competitive enough to be compelling because there were stakes in the game, but the difference in skill level was at such a divide the in play risk taking was street ball level at times. The Croatians had a guy who was heading to the Bulls and that was about it. We will never take it as seriously and the other talent will never be as far behind as that glorious summer.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk, I'm not sure why you let yourself get sucked into defending Thomas. The most obvious argument on your team compare to EAllusion is Hakeem v. Kareem. If you are going to defend not putting Jordan on your team, you better be looking at Hakeem to justify it as hard as it is to do. The Rockets had the Dream and that was it. But once Jordan retired they won both years championships. Hakeem may have the best regular season record against Jordan. I love Kareem and would want him on my team as well. But the argument you are making is better made at the position in the paint not the three point line. Whatever Curry did to make you irrational about him is showing up in that argument as well. I know you like to gamble, so does EAllusion. I'm sure there's a way to settle things like gentlemen...
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
Your team is not a pure running team...at all...to run you have to play defense and defend like mad men, and that take role players to do the dirty work.


No, the team I picked isn't a pure running team. It's a very good running team by happenstance more than anything. Garnett I liked in part because I think he could test slower PF's, but otherwise player speed just also has to do with why they are good at other things too. It would be stupid to just build a running team since that is just one aspect of the game and a diminished aspect at that when there will be fewer opportunities to run with so many efficient scorers on the floor at once. But my team is a better running team than your team, so it is an odd thing to bring up as a complaint. You should be wondering how your team can run with teams like mine, not the other way around. It's not even clear to me who you have in the front court when the other team goes small that doesn't just get smoked. Bobby Jones? Jesus, dude.

Again if forced into a half court game.....you have no answer for shaq


Kareem Abdul Jabbar strikes me as an "answer" for Shaq, but if Shaq is on the floor, I'd rather go small and just win with efficiency. Shaq will get his, but it's not enough for Shaq to be good on the floor. He needs to be better than what's coming on the other end. Shaq is quick for a player his size, but he isn't quick in absolute terms. He's going to be a defensive liability in a gameplan that relies on space when everyone in the front court can shoot. I think of Shaq being forced to switch onto Larry Bird and feel bad for him.

You said that Thomas was very alarming small...he is 6’1”...the other is 5’-8/9”...it was obvious....


The hell? For one, I directly compared him to Stockton who is also 6'1". For two, I noted that he was 2 inches smaller than Curry who is 6'3". I think it's pretty clear I had looked up his height before I made that comment and knew who I was talking about. Read better? 6'1" is alarmingly small for an all time team. All time rosters can easily field teams that are solid at every position and have no one shorter than 6'6" on the floor. This can become a problem fast. Who does Thomas guard when Micheal Jordan is the smallest player on the court? This is a question you should be asking yourself. It's one I asked when I thought about Stockton on the bench.

you also showed ignorance by saying Miller was primarily a down low player...when in fact he may be the greatest shooter of all time...in fact he was Steph’s model as a shooter.


I didn't say that. I said he played closer to the basket than Steph Curry because he literally played closer to the basket than Steph Curry. I was trying to explain to you that Curry stretches the defense because he plays further out. What Miller does at 24 feel Curry can do at 30. Curry doesn't camp the 3 point line. He is able to go further out with ease. You cited raw 3 point shooting % and I was trying to explain to you there is a degree of difficulty difference that matters. Curry is a better shooter and this better shooting ability allows him to take harder shots. Curry's lifetime 3% is 43.5% whereas Miller's is 39.5%. That's actually a very large gap, but it masks the fact that Curry has deeper range and takes a higher volume of more difficult shots. An already significant gap is bigger than it initially seems.

Your reading comprehension unfortunately just sucks, and seems to get worse when you get emotionally invested in arguing a point.

If Miller played today, which he probably still could give you 10 minutes, the guy is in incredible shape...and with the no touching rules, and his size and length over other guards, it would be Steph on steroids that can play defense, and is no where near a puss, but maybe the most competitive player ever to play.


Miller was a middling + defender. I'm not sure why you are convinced he's a great defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ere01.html

To put it in perspective, his defense was about as good as Joe Harris was this year. When you think of the name Joe Harris, do you say to yourself, "My god, what a defender?" If you pick out his best years, he was about as good as Kyrie Irving was this year. Do you think of Kyrie as an all-time defender? If you do, don't.

The idea that that Miller somehow would be a better Steph Curry in the present day is banana-pants nuts. I don't think you get what Curry is.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Hakeem and Jabbar are pretty close and overlap closely in skill-set. I like Jabbar more because Jabbar is a little faster and can generate quick, high % offense whereas Hakeem is more reliant on time-consuming post moves. I find the latter unacceptable when there is so much offensive talent on the floor to work with. I'd run close to zero traditional post offense ala modern NBA offenses. Jabbar is a significantly better passer and is one of the better passing big men of all time. I think this is at a premium in your front court when moving the ball around is going to be very important with so many gifted offensive players running around. On the offensive side, what I imagine Jabbar doing is presenting a high % threat 12-15 ft. in. If a mismatch is there for a close to automatic bucket, take it, but otherwise look away. Any pass to him should result in a quick dribble and very high % shot or a fast pass out. Otherwise, Jabbar has the body and speed to run complex screens fine.

[Again, we're talking prime Milwaukee Bucks Jabbar, not his late Lakers' years.]

Rebounding is similar once you control for era differences. Jabbar is slightly better at peak. Rebounding is the opposite of passing ability in that its value is much lower because fewer rebounding opportunities are going to be generated with so much efficient offense happening.

Hakeem is a better defender, but the difference is marginal and probably won't matter much. Hakeem is probably the second best defensive center of all time depending on how you view Russell and Jabbar is somewhere between 3 and 5. I'd probably put him at 4 behind Wilt Chamberlain, but slightly ahead of David Robinson. The gap between them is small enough that I don't care. For the above reasons, I'd sacrifice a little defensive difference for a better style of play.

All that said, I find Hakeem to be at least a defensible choice. It's close. Hakeem didn't use it because of the era he played in, but he showed a lot of potential ability to shoot. You could probably use him as a better version of what Embiid is today and get away with it. I'm still going with Kareem for the above reasons.

Markk's outright bad picks are players like Rodman and Thomas. Maybe he lived in Detroit in the 80's. Idk.

The real issue I see with Markk's team as far as Hakeem is concerned is that there are going to be times when having a prototypical center on the floor isn't the best strategy. Hakeem and Shaq double-up there. He didn't seem to plan to go smaller outside of Bobby Jones, but Bobby Jones isn't an ideal sub at that spot either. Overall, Markk seems to massively undervalue shooting ability and skill versatility at multiple positions. Because of this, his team is so much easier to gameplan.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I won't disagree with any of the above. I just figured if he had to defend not putting Jordan on his team AND argue defense beats offense then the one position in your starting 5s I thought made a reasonable case is at starting center.

In all honesty it seems to me Markk has a bias against being a good basketball player v. being a hatchet man roleplayer. It suggests how he may play himself, all elbows and body checks...;) Since he keeps asking if you even lift bro, errr, play I mean.

Just giving you crap, Markk.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:Barkley and Jordan where amazing. That was fun...

What is todays Dream team of current players? I have to think about that one.

LeBron, AD, Harding, Westbrook,the Greek freak...is a pretty good starting 5?

I doubt if Steph would make the team...:) (for EAllusion)


President Harding probably isn't going to make the team due to the decay of his soft tissues.

Lebron has lost his ability to play defense well except in small stretches. He also coasts a lot to reserve energy for when it counts more. Lebron is still great, but he's not the force he once was.

He's starting on a dream team because of who he once was, but I don't think he's top 5 anymore. So he's like the Larry Bird of the team.

Durant blew out his achilles, which is the worst possible injury for an NBA player and normally spells doom for their career. Dominque Wilkens is the only player who suffered an achilles tear and wasn't much worse after. Pre-achilles Durant is a no-brainer, but as of today, he's off the team.

1) Steph
2) Harden
3) Leonard
4) Giannis
5) AD

I take no pleasure in reporting this news.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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honorentheos wrote:I won't disagree with any of the above. I just figured if he had to defend not putting Jordan on his team AND argue defense beats offense then the one position in your starting 5s I thought made a reasonable case is at starting center.

In all honesty it seems to me Markk has a bias against being a good basketball player v. being a hatchet man roleplayer. It suggests how he may play himself, all elbows and body checks...;) Since he keeps asking if you even lift bro, errr, play I mean.

Just giving you crap, Markk.


But he left Stockton off the team. He's like the all-time great PG for cheap-shot elbows. The Dikembe Mutombo of point guards if you will.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I allowed myself one traditional center on my team. The debate for me wasn't Kareem vs. Hakeem. It was Kareem vs. Chamberlain. Based on archival footage and limited raw data, I'm fairly certain that Chamberlain would be the most athletically gifted center today and it might not be close. His vert looks to be in the 40 inch rage. At his height! He was a freak of nature so aberrant that it holds up all the way into the present. Of any old-school player, he's the one I'm most confident you can time machine into the present and still have be dominant. I'm confident of Jabbar too, but Chamberlain's athleticism and skill level is eye-popping. At his peak, he displayed the ability to do everything as well as any center or better. There's just one exception. It's the exception that matters to me.

Sky hook uber alles ya'll.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Apparently during the 92 Dream Team practises there was a scrimmage game between a team captained by Magic v. a team captained by Jordan. Jordans team won but it's been described as the greatest game of basketball ever played.

https://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/07/ ... nobody-saw
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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honorentheos wrote:Apparently during the 92 Dream Team practises there was a scrimmage game between a team captained by Magic v. a team captained by Jordan. Jordans team won but it's been described as the greatest game of basketball ever played.

https://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/07/ ... nobody-saw


Who got saddled with Laettner?

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