The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:LOL.. Isiaih along with Clyde and Stockton are the three greatest prototype 1's....period, and all three play tenacious defense.


Clyde is SG/SF, not a 1. That's not that important, though. We're in the era of positionless basketball where people have figured out that those defined roles aren't as important as skillset contributions on the floor.

Thomas was a very good defender. That's not enough. Put Mookie Blaylock on your team if you think it is.

Thomas could not shoot. This is a problem. He took very few threes per game and hit an atrocious % because he was bad at it. You should question why someone who has Thomas's ability to defend, pass, and rebound at the 1 has a hard time winning a starting job these days. People have learned more about what wins games, and Thomas's skill set is not ideal.

Jason Kidd was a better defender than Thomas. His defensive win shares eclipse Thomas easily. He was also a better pure point and rebounder. Why not him? I wouldn't recommend Jason Kidd for an all-time team either. The prime version of him was also a bad shooter, but he's a better version of what you want out of Thomas too.

Steph, he would make him Cry.


What's he gonna do? Take over one of his businesses and mismanage it into the ground? I'm not sure Curry is going to be shedding too many tears about getting to rest on defense because Thomas can't knock down a long range shot. If Thomas plays Curry tight, then that makes it a 4 on 4 game, which is all the better for the team. If Thomas doesn't play Curry tight, then Curry will make it rain on him just like everyone else.
Isaiah, along with Stockton and Frazier, were voted on the 50 greatest players of all time team, by his peers...you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Hence overrrated.

I thought hard about either Stockton or Thomas, but choose Isaiah for his speed, and his rings, something Stockton failed to get.


Yeah, that Stockton really sucked at drafting players to play with him. Curry has 3 rings if you are being consistent about individual rings somehow equaling greatness in a team sport. I'm pretty sure my team also has more rings than your team. My guards have more rings than your guards. It wasn't that long ago that you were talking up Reggie Miller as better than Curry. How many rings does Miller have again?

Back in reality, rings are a very poor measure of quality as they are dependent on numerous factors outside of individual control.

Turnovers...he average 3.8 and Steph averages 3.1


You are aware that's a big gap, right? That's especially the case when you adjust for pace.

Magic averages almost 4 and Lebron about the same. Hardly a machine, it is one more a game more than Stockton...I can live with that.


Lebron doesn't get ball handling duties on an all-time team. Magic you live with because his height allows you to do special things. But that's a drawback too. He'll be asked to take less chances with this type of team, so that should cut the problem down a bit, but he's still going to be a little more turnover prone than you'd want because he's tall and consequently his dribble is looser.

Isaiah is listed as 6-1 and steph is listed 6-3...which means nothing.
[/quote]

This may come as a surprise, but height is a key factor in basketball. It allows you to see and shoot over people. Steph is going to have to overcome his height too, but 2 inches is 2 inches. I'm not feeling great about him facing down backcourts of Magic and Jordan's and the like. The upshot is his effect on the offense is otherworldly. Thomas is a liability. Curry is not a great defender, but he is a + defender believe it or not.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Clyde Frazier is a point guard. Hall of famer. 50 all time greatest, and a top ten greatest defender of all time.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
EAllusion wrote:

HUH... https://www.basketball-reference.com/le ... areer.html. He is not in the top 250 in actual FG%

JaVale McGee is 15th all time....in eFG% are you going to take him over Dirk who is 167 on the list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4rdeN0F-XE


You don't appear to be able to read what eFG% means in context. There are clues in the post you are quoting. A low volume post player who only takes and makes easy shots around the basket is going to score a high % of the time. This is not particularly valuable because you cannot generate reliable offense from this. That's not what Steph Curry is doing. That Steph Curry scores with an efficiency comparable to a player who scores a few points a game on put-backs around the basket is extremely impressive.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Thomas was a great defender and averaged about 9 assists a game and 18 or 19 points...that is elite. He was a scorer.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Why did I pick Isaiah over Kidd...because he is better. That is a dumb question.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Thomas would play Curry tight, as would Payton and Clyde..and Curry could not come close to matching up defensively with the Glove, Isaiah, or Clyde.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:Clyde Frazier is a point guard. Hall of famer. 50 all time greatest, and a top ten greatest defender of all time.


I thought you were referring to Clyde Drexler, not Walter Frazier.

Importing older guards into the modern NBA is tough, but if you take him relative to his time he's a legit pick. I don't have a good sense of his range, but my knowledge of him and his underlying raw stats suggest someone who could adapt to the modern game and still be great. He was great defensively. More so than Thomas.

An all around much better pick than Thomas.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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How is being voted as one of the 50 best basketball players ever...overrated?
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
You don't appear to be able to read what eFG% means in context. There are clues in the post you are quoting. A low volume post player who only takes and makes easy shots around the basket is going to score a high % of the time. This is not particularly valuable because you cannot generate reliable offense from this. That's not what Steph Curry is doing. That Steph Curry scores with an efficiency comparable to a player who scores a few points a game on put-backs around the basket is extremely impressive.
. In other words the stat is meaningless. The context you created was steph is the greatest shooting guard ever because of the eFG...which is just not true, by that logic LaVale McGee is better than Dirk, far better.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:Thomas was a great defender and averaged about 9 assists a game and 18 or 19 points...that is elite. He was a scorer.


Peak Thomas is a little better than this description, but what you are missing is how holes in his game make him easy to defend when he's facing a team filled with all-time greats. 20ish points on an eFG% of around .47 and a usage rate of around 25%, which is what he did in his best seasons, is not that good at the point. All a team needs to do to defend him is lay off him at distance and dare him to drive into the best interior defenders ever. All he's left with are contested midrange twos that he hit at a middling rate. That's a garbage outcome for a team that is trying to keep pace with players like Steph Curry, Micheal Jordan, Larry Bird, etc. doing what they do.

His advanced statistical comparisons are players like Jason Terry in terms of wins over replacement. That's not bad, but it's also not anywhere near the reputation you think he deserves.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Rings are very important in my view...especially with a point guard and leader on the Court. You picked player because they were winners, so did I.

Reggie Miller, Barkley and others are the exception for all time greats that I would put on my team, that do not have a ring.

And in context with why I brought up rings, you are some how saying Isaiah Thomas was over rated, when in fact he I one of 50 deemed the greatest ever...period, by many of his peers.

How many rings does Curry have?
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
EAllusion wrote: In other words the stat is meaningless. The context you created was steph is the greatest shooting guard ever because of the eFG...which is just not true, by that logic LaVale McGee is better than Dirk, far better.


No, the stat is not meaningless. It's just a better version of FG% because it takes into account what a shot is worth. What you are doing is declaring FG% meaningless because DeAndre Jordan has a higher FG% than Giannis. You have to be able to put that number into the context of what they are doing on the floor. This is why I specifically mentioned volume of scoring in the post you quoted. It appears you cannot do this. This helps explain why you evaluate players by who you feel comfortable calling a pussy.

What Curry's eFG% tells you is that he is a hyper-efficient scorer. When you also realize that he's scoring a lot at that efficiency in positions that weaken the overall defense of the team he is playing, you appreciate that the dude is a special offensive weapon.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:Rings are very important in my view...especially with a point guard and leader on the Court. You picked player because they were winners, so did I.


I don't place any premium on winning championships. Good players tend to win because basketball is a 5 on 5 sport and one great player significantly ups the odds of winning. But good players aren't always surrounded by enough talent or coaching to overcome what other teams have and that's not their fault.

Judging players by their championships, especially in sports with even larger teams than basketball, is one of those really stupid aspects of bar room / Skip Bayless style sports commentary.

I picked Michael Jordan because the dude could ball, not because he was on a team that won 6 championships.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
And in context with why I brought up rings, you are some how saying Isaiah Thomas was over rated, when in fact he I one of 50 deemed the greatest ever...period, by many of his peers.


Why do you think peers are the ultimate experts on player rankings? You seem to put a lot of stock in it. You are aware that many of his peers have sucked at things related to basketball evaluation, right? Isiah Thomas himself was a historically terrible General Manager who absolutely sucked at player evaluation.

We're looking at the same objective facts. Thomas couldn't shoot from range. This is a liability. Saying, "Nah, he's great. His peers said so" doesn't refute this basic fact. He still can't shoot and that's still a liability.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:How is being voted as one of the 50 best basketball players ever...overrated?


Seems straightfoward to me. Some people think he's one of the best 50 best players ever, but he's actually not that good. So he's overrated.

Thomas benefits from having been on a memorable team who won championships in runs where he had memorable games. He also benefits from playing in an era where the value of certain skills were misjudged in a way that favors him. He also benefits from being media friendly. This distorts people's perception of how good he was. He wasn't bad player by any stretch. He was very good, but not quite in the inner circle of all time.

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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
Seems straightfoward to me. Some people think he's one of the best 50 best players ever, but he's actually not that good. So he's overrated.

Thomas benefits from having been on a memorable team who won championships in runs where he had memorable games. He also benefits from playing in an era where the value of certain skills were misjudged in a way that favors him. He also benefits from being media friendly. This distorts people's perception of how good he was. He wasn't bad player by any stretch. He was very good, but not quite in the inner circle of all time.


He is one of the best 50 players in the world, but not that good!...LOL...Okaaay. He won championships, and had memorial Games, including 12x allstar, MVP of the playoffs, MVP of the North Carolina Indian Hoosiers...but overrated?

Did you watch him play? How old were you when he played?

If he is not quite in the inner circle...LOL, why is he in the inner circle?
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
Markk wrote:
And in context with why I brought up rings, you are some how saying Isaiah Thomas was over rated, when in fact he I one of 50 deemed the greatest ever...period, by many of his peers.


Why do you think peers are the ultimate experts on player rankings? You seem to put a lot of stock in it. You are aware that many of his peers have sucked at things related to basketball evaluation, right? Isiah Thomas himself was a historically terrible General Manager who absolutely sucked at player evaluation.

We're looking at the same objective facts. Thomas couldn't shoot from range. This is a liability. Saying, "Nah, he's great. His peers said so" doesn't refute this basic fact. He still can't shoot and that's still a liability.


Because they played against them, and beat most of them...As as GM he did not play against those he drafted...he did pick . That is a Dumb comparison.

Not shooting for range is not a liability, Michael Jordan was a horrible 3 point shooter, and is considered the GOAT by most folks. Isaiah averaged 4 more assists per game that Steph,plays better defense, and that is what I want on my team. I chose a running team, that can play a half court game if the have to. You chose a puss, that cries when he is covered man to man, that is your choice. And your team is slow and big, with no role players to compliment a system.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:Importing older guards into the modern NBA is tough, ...

They would pick up their game by necessity. If Bob Cousy showed up for freshman high school basketball in 2013, he would still be a star.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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moksha wrote:
EAllusion wrote:Importing older guards into the modern NBA is tough, ...

They would pick up their game by necessity. If Bob Cousy showed up for freshman high school basketball in 2013, he would still be a star.

Yeah, he was only 84 then. He's 90 now, and has slowed down ;-)
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:
I picked Michael Jordan because the dude could ball, not because he was on a team that won 6 championships.


LOL sure...because he could ball, is why he won 6 rings...the are mutual. You can't be the GOAT, without championships. Whether it be Ruth, Brady, or Jordon.

And I never said I picked players because of rings, but that rings are a sign of their greatness.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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MeDotOrg wrote:Yeah, he was only 84 then. He's 90 now, and has slowed down ;-)

Yeah, I didn't specify that Cousy would be of high school freshmen age in 2013 if playing as a high school freshmen. These hypothetical points are so complicated!
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