Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't real

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SteelHead
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Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't real

Post by SteelHead »

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... =hootsuite

Evolution observed in mice in real time.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Res Ipsa »

Oh yeah? Show me a crocoduck. Checkmate, evilutionists!
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Xenophon »

Res Ipsa wrote:Oh yeah? Show me a crocoduck. Checkmate, evilutionists!
But what about whales and raccoons!?!?


sorry Ceebanator
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Res Ipsa »

Seriously, cool experiment. Sadly, you'll just get the micro/macro evaluation tap dance.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

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This is cool. Why is it in the Telestial Forum?

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Res Ipsa »

I think it’s because I said “crocoduck.”
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by SteelHead »

Cuz I miss clicked? Can A mod move the thread to Terrestrial?
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by SPG »

Yeah, but is adapting the same as evolving? Like, I go out into the cold and I adapt. Did I evolve, or was the ability always there? When I grow up, did I evolve or follow a prescribed process? If I go to the gym and build big muscles, did I evolve or utilize existing features?

When people moved north of equator and put on clothes, thus hiding from the sun and turning pale, did they evolve or just remove a common nutrient? Are they really different then those south and still dark? If I pick up a tool to temporarily work on a job, did I evolve or simply adapt? If I go from the IT department to Accounting, did I evolve, or adapt?

In other words, is life basically the same today as it was a billions ago? The only difference is environment and experience?

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by DrW »

SPG wrote:Yeah, but is adapting the same as evolving? Like, I go out into the cold and I adapt. Did I evolve, or was the ability always there? When I grow up, did I evolve or follow a prescribed process? If I go to the gym and build big muscles, did I evolve or utilize existing features?

When people moved north of equator and put on clothes, thus hiding from the sun and turning pale, did they evolve or just remove a common nutrient? Are they really different then those south and still dark? If I pick up a tool to temporarily work on a job, did I evolve or simply adapt? If I go from the IT department to Accounting, did I evolve, or adapt?

In other words, is life basically the same today as it was a billions ago? The only difference is environment and experience?

Life today is definitely not basically the same as it was a few billion years ago. Fortunately, human biology and physiology today are quite different from life back then, which pretty much consisted of prokaryotic cyanobacteria that made a living from photosynthesis.

These guys lived in an environment in which we humans, left to our own devices, would have lasted for less than 10 minutes. These single celled organisms didn't even have a nucleus. Their DNA was in the from of little circular plasmids that sort of roamed around the cell at will. The task of cyanobacteria in the evolution of the planet was to release oxygen into the atmosphere so we multi-celled organisms could eventually live here, as soon as evolution could come up with us.

A good working definition of evolution is the acquisition of new and heritable traits in a population. New and heritable traits means acquisition of mutations; that is, changes in the sequence of base pairs in the DNA. New DNA sequences lead to new proteins, which enable new physiology.

The experiment with mice described by the article referenced in the OP demonstrated that the genomes of the light-coat mouse population were statistically different, in terms of mutations in their DNA, from the genomes of the dark-coat population, and that both had evolved from the founding population through adaptation to their respective environments (light soil vs dark soil). Natural selection is demonstrated yet again.

Many of the adaptations SPG described in humans could be accomplished to some extent, without genetic changes. More likely over time, however, epigenetic changes would be involved.

Epigenetic changes, while heritable to some extent, do not arise from a mutation in the DNA sequence itself, but by means of chemical tags such as methyl groups attached to the outer surface of the DNA. This methylation does not alter the sequence of base pairs, but does help control how they are expressed in terms of relative rates of protein production.

Epigenetic changes that do not alter the DNA sequence can also include acetylation of the basesas well as methylation. It can also include methylation of the histone proteins around which the DNA is wrapped to form chromatin.

A well known example of a genetic mutation to the DNA itself, one that confers a heritable survival advantage, is the emergence of the nylonase enzyme in a strain of Flavobacterium. This point mutation allows bacteria to derive energy from molecules that did not exist on the planet before the invention and manufacture of the nylon polymer in 1930s.

The nylonase enzyme is the result of a point mutation in the genetic sequence for a protein (enzyme in this case) that previously had no capability to use nylon by-products as food.

Judging from massive quantities of pseudo-scientific nonsense they come up with in response, the discovery of nylonase by the Japanese, as a crystal-clear example of evolution by mutation, appears to drive the creationist and ID communities crazy.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by honorentheos »

SPG wrote:In other words, is life basically the same today as it was a billions ago? The only difference is environment and experience?

In a sense, yeah, you're right. "Life" as biologically understood processes could be said to be fundamentally the same but it's expression and the species that have life are radically different due to changes in the environment and competition that results in different forms of life existing now that didn't a billion years ago.

But I don't think that's what you meant given your poor understanding of what adaptation is compared to evolution stated above. There isn't much to be said other than you should probably read more rather than trusting your own intuitions about the universe. Of course, that would require accepting the role of the dreaded experts who should be considered skeptically while belief in gods results in such feats of civilizational advancement as was evidenced in the middle ages when the ruins of Roman engineering mystified people and the Muslim world was the preserver of lost wisdom in the west, while the east was engaging in oceanic travels and trade. Because God = progress.

SPG, everything in your post is understood and well supported by the evidence in modern evolutionary theory. It's not doing yourself or your family any favors to try and reinvent the sum of human knowledge. If not for yourself, consider the effect this has on your child's upbringing and their ability to compete in the modern world.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by SPG »

honorentheos wrote:SPG, everything in your post is understood and well supported by the evidence in modern evolutionary theory. It's not doing yourself or your family any favors to try and reinvent the sum of human knowledge. If not for yourself, consider the effect this has on your child's upbringing and their ability to compete in the modern world.

I've read a lot. Which sort makes your responses frustrating. I have thousands of books, (read most of them) I have hundreds of digital books, audio books, 100Mbps internet, 10 connected computers, 5 portable devices, a know it all kid, and a rebellious attitude with cult training.

My question isn't because I don't understand what you think, it's because there are questions beyond that.

I understand evolution.

But you step out of time for a moment and consider the absolute nature of something, can output equal more then input?

If you tossed a germ into a petrie dish and then open it an hour later and they were trying to launch rockets, wouldn't you wonder if that germ had the ability the whole time?

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by honorentheos »

DrW is one of the people on this board who, when he offers thoughts on a topic, I anticipate being educated by his insights. This topic is one in particular where I view his knowledge to be many notches above the lay person's or what one may pick up from a few books and watching a YouTube video. That didn't come about because he posts in a way with which I automatically agree.

You aren't elevating the discussion by speculating on Deepakraties and Sophomoric speculation on the capacity of the mind to be the sum total of all of creation just because we understand that for individuals our minds are interpreting input data to construct a model of the sources of those inputs that allows us to survive and pass on our genes instead of falling off cliffs or thrown in jail. Instead of telling people that you've read all these books, show it in a way that suggests you did more than skim over them looking for fodder for dippity-do esoteric concepts. I'm guessing you also are well read on quantum mechanics and are willing to look at questions others won't consider because of their assumptions about what they know, too. You're not the first person to go around selling a new gospel formed from your own outsized sense of self-importance that arose out of a hallucination. And then chose to interpret the fact you are the only one who believes in the things you supposed saw as evidence everyone else is ignorant rather than the supposed manifestation you had was a product of your own mind let loose with not other grounding in reality than any other dream a person might have while asleep or under the influence of hallucinogenics.

But hey, if you toss a germ into a Petry dish and get the result you speculated on, let me know. There's a lot of money to made from germs that can produce functional rockets in under an hour.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by SPG »

honorentheos wrote:But hey, if you toss a germ into a Petry dish and get the result you speculated on, let me know. There's a lot of money to made from germs that can produce functional rockets in under an hour.

Hey, I came to my ideas honestly by thinking too much and pondering too much. I got into Quantum Mechanics because people kept saying I sounded like string theory, or that theory. I barely know who Deepak is.

But, your heart warming, "I believe brother DrW spokes the word of God" speech is well received. I always find the recommendation to read more books to be educational. I could also list his comment under "how to call a person an idiot without them knowing."

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

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SPG wrote: I could also list his comment under "how to call a person an idiot without them knowing."

Come on, SPG - not very charitable comment. You posed two questions at the conclusion of your post upthread. I provided responses. Pretty much everything mentioned in those response has been discussed on this board in the past, and you are welcome to verify everything stated in the appropriate text books.

Anyone who has read thousands of books (or even a dozen mainstream science books on evolution), and ends up posing the questions that you did upthread, must not have been reading for comprehension.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

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DrW wrote:Anyone who has read thousands of books (or even a dozen mainstream science books on evolution), and ends up posing the questions that you did upthread, must not have been reading for comprehension.

Oh my, that was brutal.

:lol:

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

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SPG wrote: I have thousands of books, (read most of them)

what is the name of the last non-fiction book you've read?
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Shulem »

Gadianton wrote:
SPG wrote: I have thousands of books, (read most of them)

what is the name of the last non-fiction book you've read?

You won't get an answer. I couldn't even get a new name down in telestial.

:mad:

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by honorentheos »

SPG wrote:
honorentheos wrote:But hey, if you toss a germ into a Petry dish and get the result you speculated on, let me know. There's a lot of money to made from germs that can produce functional rockets in under an hour.

Hey, I came to my ideas honestly by thinking too much and pondering too much. I got into Quantum Mechanics because people kept saying I sounded like string theory, or that theory. I barely know who Deepak is.

But, your heart warming, "I believe brother DrW spokes the word of God" speech is well received. I always find the recommendation to read more books to be educational. I could also list his comment under "how to call a person an idiot without them knowing."

SPG, had you taken the time to read the link in the OP even, you wouldn't have posted what you did with the most basic background knowledge of evolutionary theory.

Others posited similar questions that you did before genes and DNA were understood, speculating that individuals engaged in behaviors that led to adaptation IN THE INDIVIDUAL that were inheritable. For example, there was the famous debate over the evolution of Giraffes and their distinctive long necks. Jean Lamark speculated before Darwin that transformation was the mechanism by which change occurred as illustrated in this image:

Image

This theory was wrong, but with the excuse of ignorance. The theory of evolution was built on mutations where individuals with the most advantageous traits were able to outcompete those with less advantageous traits. This ended up being supported by each improvement in our knowledge of genes, DNA, and as DrW pointed out, epigenetics.

For example, in the study linked in the OP, the researchers went through the effort to identify the genetic mutations and genes involved in the findings, such as -

A simpler study could have stopped here, but the team went deeper. Team member Stefan Laurent sequenced a gene called Agouti, which has been linked to fur color, in all 481 of the mice. He found seven mutations that had become more common in the light enclosures, and rarer in the dark ones.

One, known as delta-Ser, seemed to have an especially strong effect. And when another team member, Ricardo Mallarino, engineered that mutation into the Agouti genes of normal lab mice, the rodents grew up with noticeably lighter coats. What had happened?

The Agouti gene is known to affect fur color through the production of a yellow-brown pigment. But to do that, it needs to partner up with other genes. Mallarino found that the delta-Ser mutation disrupts the part of the gene that facilitates those partnerships. It forces Agouti to work alone, which means that it produces much less pigment. This one mutation had lightened the mice’s fur enough that a human eye could see the difference. “And now we know why,” Hoekstra says.


This is why your claim that you've read multiple books and have a solid understanding of the topic rings hollow. Your meandering thoughts on how little we really understand compared to the power of the mind may be something that flips folks like Amore's switch who want to gobble up esoteric, feel good claims about the power of belief. But if you are in that game you should get to know Deepak because he is the apex predator with all the influence and raking in the cash through it. Get your SWOT on and get a business plan.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

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Gadianton wrote:
SPG wrote: I have thousands of books, (read most of them)

what is the name of the last non-fiction book you've read?

The actual last non-fiction book I completed was called English grammar boot camp. Not exactly exciting oh, it's something that I feel necessary for myself.

Looking through my books from last year I found half dozen political science books, three books on Lyme's disease, two books on how to be a good dad, 5 books to get my general ham radio license, 3 books on Biocentrism, about 10 fiction book,

But my favorite was, the subtle art of not giving a ____. That was a great book. Probably help me come back here.

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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by honorentheos »

SPG wrote:...3 books on Biocentrism

Ah.
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by Themis »

SPG wrote:If you tossed a germ into a petrie dish and then open it an hour later and they were trying to launch rockets, wouldn't you wonder if that germ had the ability the whole time?

That's what happen over a period of billions of years, but I didn't think they would have had that ability at the start. DrW did give you some good answers, yet you didn't engage him or his answer at all. I suspect you avoided it because you are ignorant about the subject, which honorentheos brought up and everyone else recognized.
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