Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
The Bible writers didn't make the money. The later Bible thumpers did. Ever heard of the Prosperity Gospel? Kenneth Copeland? Jan Crouch? Benny Hinn? Joel Osteen? Creflo Dollar? I could go on.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id277.htm

But that is just them. They are individuals who gather a following, and the followers heap money on them. Is this true of every minister or ministry? Obviously not! This is what happens when men take their eyes off GOD and try to keep up with and embrace the "Jones' " of this world.


But God doesn't prevent it and even allows it. Other Christians don't speak out much about it either. Looks like Satan moves among the Christians even more than among the atheists. :lol: Rich men buying their way into the kingdom of heaven, like our president. The temple ceremony pastor even said, "You can buy anything in this world for money." :biggrin:
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:But that is just them. They are individuals who gather a following, and the followers heap money on them. Is this true of every minister or ministry? Obviously not! This is what happens when men take their eyes off GOD and try to keep up with and embrace the "Jones' " of this world.


But God doesn't prevent it and even allows it. Other Christians don't speak out much about it either. Looks like Satan moves among the Christians even more than among the atheists. :lol: Rich men buying their way into the kingdom of heaven, like our president. The temple ceremony pastor even said, "You can buy anything in this world for money." :biggrin:


I do, and I'm a Christian. It's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. The President isn't buying his way into heaven. Yes, you can buy nearly anything in this world for money; however, you cannot take it with you into the next.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:I do, and I'm a Christian. It's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. The President isn't buying his way into heaven. Yes, you can buy nearly anything in this world for money; however, you cannot take it with you into the next.

I think the Christians ought to clean up their own house before they go preaching to others. They've given in to the moneychangers and followed Satan in seeking power in the world that Jesus refused. Especially the ones surrounding the president. They excuse his breaking of every commandment because they can gain power and glory through him. Satanic.
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I do, and I'm a Christian. It's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. The President isn't buying his way into heaven. Yes, you can buy nearly anything in this world for money; however, you cannot take it with you into the next.


I think the Christians ought to clean up their own house before they go preaching to others. They've given in to the moneychangers and followed Satan in seeking power in the world that Jesus refused. Especially the ones surrounding the president. They excuse his breaking of every commandment because they can gain power and glory through him. Satanic.
Personally, I feel strongly that there is much more going on here than meets the eye. There are allegations going all around. The simple fact is that there were two candidates running for President. The one presented himself as a political outsider who said he had the business savvy to get the U.S. economy back on track. The other had enough social reforms to turn this country finally into a SOCIALISTIC State. The one stated that he no longer believed that abortion was the way to go. The other embraced both abortion as a handy means of "Family Planning," and the woman's prerogative. The one questioned the logic of "gay" marriage, while the other endorsed it and even promoted it as a state training mandate. The one divorced and remarried with alleged sexual improprieties. The other has been alleged to have had a lesbian affair and remained married an individual who used his power to engage in sexual activity in the oval office. The one expects that nations to whom we give support should reciprocate with factual information regarding improprieties of American citizens either acting on behalf of our nation or to line their own pockets at America's expense... The other allowed an American Embassy to fend for itself on her watch and appears to have been involved in a very seedy real estate and perhaps connected to the deaths of several individuals. Trump was and remains the lesser of two evils, and he also moved the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem --- and this in itself indicates that GOD allowed Trump to be President to further His will (Hillary would not have done such a thing and in fact appears highly pro Palestinian).

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I think the Christians ought to clean up their own house before they go preaching to others. They've given in to the moneychangers and followed Satan in seeking power in the world that Jesus refused. Especially the ones surrounding the president. They excuse his breaking of every commandment because they can gain power and glory through him. Satanic.
Personally, I feel strongly that there is much more going on here than meets the eye. There are allegations going all around. The simple fact is that there were two candidates running for President. The one presented himself as a political outsider who said he had the business savvy to get the U.S. economy back on track. The other had enough social reforms to turn this country finally into a SOCIALISTIC State. The one stated that he no longer believed that abortion was the way to go. The other embraced both abortion as a handy means of "Family Planning," and the woman's prerogative. The one questioned the logic of "gay" marriage, while the other endorsed it and even promoted it as a state training mandate. The one divorced and remarried with alleged sexual improprieties. The other has been alleged to have had a lesbian affair and remained married an individual who used his power to engage in sexual activity in the oval office. The one expects that nations to whom we give support should reciprocate with factual information regarding improprieties of American citizens either acting on behalf of our nation or to line their own pockets at America's expense... The other allowed an American Embassy to fend for itself on her watch and appears to have been involved in a very seedy real estate and perhaps connected to the deaths of several individuals. Trump was and remains the lesser of two evils, and he also moved the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem --- and this in itself indicates that GOD allowed Trump to be President to further His will (Hillary would not have done such a thing and in fact appears highly pro Palestinian).


So corruption is okay if the corrupt also help Christians? That makes the Christians also corrupt. It isn't a one way thing. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Let in enough corruption and you undo everything since Luther, maybe even since Jesus.

Consider the possibility that both parties are of this world and not to be defended. Both candidates were unfit. Lose/lose. It's my theory. :wink:
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote: Trump was and remains the lesser of two evils, and he also moved the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem --- and this in itself indicates that GOD allowed Trump to be President to further His will...

The Evangelical God is like best buds with Trump. Dash those babies against the rock and widen the eye of the needle to accommodate a Creflo Dollar jet!
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:So corruption is okay if the corrupt also help Christians? That makes the Christians also corrupt. It isn't a one way thing. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Let in enough corruption and you undo everything since Luther, maybe even since Jesus.

Consider the possibility that both parties are of this world and not to be defended. Both candidates were unfit. Lose/lose. It's my theory. :wink:

Maksutov, unless I misunderstood you , you recently proposed that due to democratic corruption it is not worth it to vote against Trump. The above sounds like it may be following the same idea? Is there a difference between your support of Trump and Nippers support?

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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huckelberry wrote:
Maksutov wrote:So corruption is okay if the corrupt also help Christians? That makes the Christians also corrupt. It isn't a one way thing. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Let in enough corruption and you undo everything since Luther, maybe even since Jesus.

Consider the possibility that both parties are of this world and not to be defended. Both candidates were unfit. Lose/lose. It's my theory. :wink:

Maksutov, unless I misunderstood you , you recently proposed that due to democratic corruption it is not worth it to vote against Trump. The above sounds like it may be following the same idea? Is there a difference between your support of Trump and Nippers support?

Really? Show me. Every day I post stuff to encourage people to vote against Trump.

Hillary was corrupt. Maybe not as corrupt as Trump but she played fast and loose with folks through the Global Initiative while she was Secretary of State. Did she do all the things Alex Jones and company accuse her of? Hell no. The whole Clinton body count thing is as credible as alien reptiles running the Pentagon.

Is there Democratic party corruption? Yep. Republican party corruption? Yep. Every group that obtains power is prone to it. Eternal vigilance required. Christian institutions, atheist institutions, Muslim institutions, all are run by humans and subject to human errors. That doesn't mean we have to decide to accept them. I know that humans kill each other and always have but I don't shrug at murder.
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:
huckelberry wrote:Maksutov, unless I misunderstood you , you recently proposed that due to democratic corruption it is not worth it to vote against Trump. The above sounds like it may be following the same idea? Is there a difference between your support of Trump and Nippers support?

Really? Show me. Every day I post stuff to encourage people to vote against Trump.

Hillary was corrupt. Maybe not as corrupt as Trump but she played fast and loose with folks through the Global Initiative while she was Secretary of State. Did she do all the things Alex Jones and company accuse her of? Hell no. The whole Clinton body count thing is as credible as alien reptiles running the Pentagon.

Is there Democratic party corruption? Yep. Republican party corruption? Yep. Every group that obtains power is prone to it. Eternal vigilance required. Christian institutions, atheist institutions, Muslim institutions, all are run by humans and subject to human errors. That doesn't mean we have to decide to accept them. I know that humans kill each other and always have but I don't shrug at murder.

And neither do I shrug; however, I will not accept a government that is bent on telling me what I should accept and not accept. Top Democrats openly talk about ending tax-exempt status for churches, synagogues, religious schools — anything connected with God. Beto O'Rourke told Democrats if any churches back traditional marriage — and oppose gay marriage — they should be punished. They should lose their tax-exempt status. It is not supposed to be government in spite of the people. I do not trust the Democrats. Kennedy was in office when prayer and Bible reading were removed from public schools. The Democrats were the ones who assumed governmental responsibility of public education in 1946 and taking it from real Community activism. No one imagined that the 10 Commandments would be on the chopping block at that time--- no one except the socialists and liberals who began to carve away at freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom from oppression. It's odd that some people can say whatever they wish and others are told to do so is not politically correct. Some individuals don't like Trump because he threatens their agenda. Not ALL behavior is valuable to a community. If one wishes to live like a pig, he must first reduce the community to a pigsty, and to do that one must work to eliminate the influence of those that equate a pigsty with garbage.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:Really? Show me. Every day I post stuff to encourage people to vote against Trump.

Hillary was corrupt. Maybe not as corrupt as Trump but she played fast and loose with folks through the Global Initiative while she was Secretary of State. Did she do all the things Alex Jones and company accuse her of? Hell no. The whole Clinton body count thing is as credible as alien reptiles running the Pentagon.

Is there Democratic party corruption? Yep. Republican party corruption? Yep. Every group that obtains power is prone to it. Eternal vigilance required. Christian institutions, atheist institutions, Muslim institutions, all are run by humans and subject to human errors. That doesn't mean we have to decide to accept them. I know that humans kill each other and always have but I don't shrug at murder.


Maksutov, I apologize for misunderstanding you, I do not remember where the post is that gave me the wrong impression. It would have been related to you wise comments above about vigilance required. Thanks for the well stated comments above.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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In I Nephi chapter 16, we have a linguistic problem with the STEEL bow and bows that lost their SPRINGS. And while steel bows are mentioned in the Bible, it appears that a mistranslation is the likely explanation. HOWEVER, Joseph Smith is recorded to have stated that the Book of Mormon had not been so corrupted with such error. Yet, apparently, it was/is. Could GOD have allowed this minor misunderstanding into HIS Holy Scripture to demonstrate and expose future fraudulent claims? We still have the Hebrew and it is apparent that the actual meaning of the word translated steel was likely SERPINTINE -- or they could have just left the Hebrew word alone and highlighted. But the fact that this quirk found its way into Joseph Smith's epic should set off warning bells that in fact Mr. Smith didn't do or have what he claimed.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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In I Nephi chapter 18 we have the problem with the native animals ---goats, horses, cows... Unfortunately, the Spanish introduced these to the "New World" in the 16th Century. Is this another of Joseph Smith's perfect translation/so called "more perfect" book flubs..?

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:In I Nephi chapter 16, we have a linguistic problem with the STEEL bow and bows that lost their SPRINGS. And while steel bows are mentioned in the Bible, it appears that a mistranslation is the likely explanation. HOWEVER, Joseph Smith is recorded to have stated that the Book of Mormon had not been so corrupted with such error. Yet, apparently, it was/is. Could GOD have allowed this minor misunderstanding into HIS Holy Scripture to demonstrate and expose future fraudulent claims? We still have the Hebrew and it is apparent that the actual meaning of the word translated steel was likely SERPINTINE -- or they could have just left the Hebrew word alone and highlighted. But the fact that this quirk found its way into Joseph Smith's epic should set off warning bells that in fact Mr. Smith didn't do or have what he claimed.


Wasn't steel known in the Old World around 600 BCE?? I know that steel wasn't known in the New World around 600 BCE, but I believe that steel was known in the Old World around that time.
From Wikipedia:

Steel was known in antiquity and was produced in bloomeries and crucibles.[17][18]

The earliest known production of steel is seen in pieces of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehöyük) and are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from 1800 BC.[19][20] Horace identifies steel weapons such as the falcata in the Iberian Peninsula, while Noric steel was used by the Roman military.[21]

The reputation of Seric iron of South India (wootz steel) grew considerably in the rest of the world.[18] Metal production sites in Sri Lanka employed wind furnaces driven by the monsoon winds, capable of producing high-carbon steel. Large-scale Wootz steel production in Tamilakam using crucibles and carbon sources such as the plant Avāram occurred by the sixth century BC, the pioneering precursor to modern steel production and metallurgy.[17][18]

The Chinese of the Warring States period (403–221 BC) had quench-hardened steel,[22] while Chinese of the Han dynasty (202 BC – 220 AD) created steel by melting together wrought iron with cast iron, gaining an ultimate product of a carbon-intermediate steel by the 1st century AD.[23][24]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel


And steel is mentioned within the New American Standard Bible.

Nahum 2:3 (NASB)
The shields of his mighty men are colored red, The warriors are dressed in scarlet, The chariots are enveloped in flashing steel When he is prepared to march, And the cypress spears are brandished.
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Oh yeah? What about the Samurai swords made with the steel from Nephite Bessemer Converters? What about the chariots made with tungsten steel and fine Corinthian leather?
What about the steel cages on Noah's ark that transported the Yeti to the Himalayas and Big Feet to North America?

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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I Nephi 23:12

I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden WEDGE (Translation error lifted directly from the King James version of Isaiah --- correction should be GOLD) of Ophir.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:In I Nephi chapter 18 we have the problem with the native animals ---goats, horses, cows... Unfortunately, the Spanish introduced these to the "New World" in the 16th Century. Is this another of Joseph Smith's perfect translation/so called "more perfect" book flubs..?


Speaking of errors including any presumable mistranslation errors, has anyone compared the number of errors with the Isaiah and New Testament quotations in the Book of Mormon? Just wondering if the kind of errors increases or decreases.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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The doctrinal problem with the Book of Mormon is profound. II Nephi 2 clearly reveals a "Buddhist" philosophical thought that for GOD to exist, evil needs to have always existed. This according to the Bible is pure poppycock. God created a perfect cherub, who quite on his own decided to superseded/usurp GOD. Satan is the author of sin. The original sin was to become GOD and this developed into being contrary to the will of GOD. Sin in fact becomes worse and worse as it progresses and festers on itself. Satan then eventually feeds Eve and Adam the same lie. That lie is that GOD is standing in your way of becoming GODs yourself. Man is a created being. Satan started as a created being. Created beings cannot be become GOD. GOD was not created. We can embrace GOD and love GOD and commune with GOD; however, we can NEVER ever be GOD. Christ was GOD who became a man in order to save. GOD was never a man who became GOD...

Add to this the Gnostic belief that man had to Fall from grace in order to have a sexual relationship and sire children with Eve, and the book of Mormon then makes heroes of both Adam and Satan. Satan entices Adam. Adam falls and only then can have sex with Eve and establish humanity? The Bible clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were intended to populate the earth. Sin, tainted the souls that should have been perfect before GOD but now needed redemption or forever be dead to GOD --- eternally separated. Adam and Eve fell from grace before they had become parents. This doesn't mean that had Adam and Eve not fallen they would never have had children. Such a view is the thing premarital sex and homosexual marriage has been established on--- HEDONISM.

I really don't believe most Mormons even know what the book of Mormon is implying, and those that do are clearly influenced through demonic manipulation. So, not only is the Book of Mormon mythological (non-historical), but it is proving more and more to be heretical.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:The doctrinal problem with the Book of Mormon is profound. II Nephi 2 clearly reveals a "Buddhist" philosophical thought that for GOD to exist, evil needs to have always existed.


If you're that ignorant of Buddhism, you don't have much credibility in any other religion that you're making big pronouncements about. Show us where Buddhism is theistic. It isn't. :lol:
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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:The doctrinal problem with the Book of Mormon is profound. II Nephi 2 clearly reveals a "Buddhist" philosophical thought that for GOD to exist, evil needs to have always existed.


If you're that ignorant of Buddhism, you don't have much credibility in any other religion that you're making big pronouncements about. Show us where Buddhism is theistic. It isn't. :lol:


I, as well as, you realize that it isn't that simple; however, karma/kamma for a Buddhist plays a part between the joining of kusala and akusala, in terms of Buddhist ethics kusala and akusala are qualities of the law of kamma wherein lies the struggle between light and dark, "good" and "bad".

I'm a Christian and not a Buddhist, but I don't live under a rock. I do not pretend to know everything about every religion. Buddhists for the most part don't believe in GOD per se. However, they do regard enlightenment as something to acquire to reach a higher plateau and The Buddha is supposed to have reached some level of "divinity" through his enlightenment.

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
If you're that ignorant of Buddhism, you don't have much credibility in any other religion that you're making big pronouncements about. Show us where Buddhism is theistic. It isn't. :lol:


I, as well as, you realize that it isn't that simple; however, karma/kamma for a Buddhist plays a part between the joining of kusala and akusala, in terms of Buddhist ethics kusala and akusala are qualities of the law of kamma wherein lies the struggle between light and dark, "good" and "bad".

I'm a Christian and not a Buddhist, but I don't live under a rock. I do not pretend to know everything about every religion. Buddhists for the most part don't believe in GOD per se. However, they do regard enlightenment as something to acquire to reach a higher plateau and The Buddha is supposed to have reached some level of "divinity" through his enlightenment.


But that's not what you said.

" a "Buddhist" philosophical thought that for GOD to exist, evil needs to have always existed"

Your statement was false. That is *not* "Buddhist". The point of Buddhism is to end the cycle of endless reincarnations, to expiate one's karma and to work for the enlightenment of one's self and all other creatures. Christianity, with its substitutionary atonement, is nothing like Buddhism and neither is Judaism. The Abrahamic religions (including Mormonism) rely on anthropomorphic creator gods and patriarchal social orders with a common source. Buddhism is another thing entirely.

The most effective refutations of Mormonism come from the clear evidence of fraud by Smith in many instances and the utter lack of confirming evidence in the historical record of the unique claims of the religion.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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Re: Problems thus far with the Book of Mormon!

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Maksutov wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:I, as well as, you realize that it isn't that simple; however, karma/kamma for a Buddhist plays a part between the joining of kusala and akusala, in terms of Buddhist ethics kusala and akusala are qualities of the law of kamma wherein lies the struggle between light and dark, "good" and "bad".

I'm a Christian and not a Buddhist, but I don't live under a rock. I do not pretend to know everything about every religion. Buddhists for the most part don't believe in GOD per se. However, they do regard enlightenment as something to acquire to reach a higher plateau and The Buddha is supposed to have reached some level of "divinity" through his enlightenment.


But that's not what you said.

" a "Buddhist" philosophical thought that for GOD to exist, evil needs to have always existed"

Your statement was false. That is *not* "Buddhist". The point of Buddhism is to end the cycle of endless reincarnations, to expiate one's karma and to work for the enlightenment of one's self and all other creatures. Christianity, with its substitutionary atonement, is nothing like Buddhism and neither is Judaism. The Abrahamic religions (including Mormonism) rely on anthropomorphic creator gods and patriarchal social orders with a common source. Buddhism is another thing entirely.

The most effective refutations of Mormonism come from the clear evidence of fraud by Smith in many instances and the utter lack of confirming evidence in the historical record of the unique claims of the religion.

What I said is that the Book of Mormon says (in II Nephi 2) that both Good and Evil MUST exist or GOD cannot. Buddhists believe GOOD and Evil are eternal (essentially complimenting each other). And the book of Mormon stipulates that for GOD to exist, evil must exist. That isn't a Christian view and it is closer to a Buddhist consideration of that conflict. The Christian view is that GOD existed eternally in perfection. GOD created, and an angel GOD created determined that he wanted to replace GOD. As a result Satan and not GOD is the author of SIN by his rebellion against the will of his creator. Mormon doctrine promotes Satan and Christ as children of GOD. I in no way wish to make this a debate about Buddhism.

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