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What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:18 pm
by karl61
On another thread a reference was given to D&C section 19 and the atonement.

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

In 3 Nephi 11:11 it says:

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings.

If you google "bitter cup" Protestant theology you get a lot of different hits and explanations.

any thoughts?

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:13 pm
by Dr. Shades
karl61 wrote:Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings. . . any thoughts?

Yes: "You're just now noticing this?"

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:53 am
by karl61
Dr. Shades wrote:
karl61 wrote:Now, for me, when I look at writings of Joseph Smith I believe his thoughts were created from reviewing centuries of religious writings. . . any thoughts?

Yes: "You're just now noticing this?"


I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:58 am
by huckelberry
karl61 wrote:I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

Karl61, are there reasons you are looking beyond the obvious meaning, bitter cup is his suffering and death nailed to a cross?

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:19 pm
by karl61
huckelberry wrote:
karl61 wrote:I think it's just appearing little by little, line upon line to me. I think he took a lot of terms like infinite atonement from Calvinist and Quakers and Anabaptist. Those terms may not be used in today's protestant sermons by were likely used by preachers in Europe and America. Alexander Campbell certainly made the case in his little pamphlet that the Book of Mormon contained all the hot issues discussed in church's in the upper New York state area.

But I still need a little clarification on the bitter cup, especially the D&C verse

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

It goes on to the next verse after the word shrink and why did he not want to drink it and why use the last word of shrink.

Karl61, are there reasons you are looking beyond the obvious meaning, bitter cup is his suffering and death nailed to a cross?


Thank you huckelberry for providing the clarification. A lot of things fly over my head.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:27 am
by Nightlion
Could be that in the act of atonement by taking upon himself the sins of the world he 'shrinks' from being fully God which sacrifice is finished on the cross. Then taking back his life again he regains full status as God. Thus God itself is renewed pushing back natural entropy. Just off the cuff here reading this moment. More could be said about this.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:58 pm
by msnobody
I think the bitter cup is the cup of God’s wrath upon sin. Jesus experienced separation from God the Father by taking this cup.

I may not understand this correctly, but I’ll say this too. Once the bride price is paid, the father pours a cup of wine at the ceremony. The bridegroom offers the cup to the future bride and by offering the cup he is vowing to give his life for his bride. Will the bride reach out to take the cup offered? When she reaches out to take the cup offered and drinks, she indicates she is willing to give her life for the bridegroom. The bridegroom, then, goes back to his home to prepare a place for his bride, for whom he will return for his bride at a time determined by his father.

Just my thoughts about the “bitter” cup and parallels to the bridegroom and his bride, the church.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:51 pm
by msnobody
I’m reading the book, The Tabernacle by M. R. DeHaan. In the book, the author poses the question, “What is in this cup to make Him cry for deliverance? He who shrank not from the jeering mob, He who feared not those who who would slay Him, He who later went without murmuring to the Cross, to die without complaint, what was this awful thing which makes Him cringe now, and cry out to the Father?... It was sin. Yours and mine! The only thing Jesus was afraid of was sin, and so He asks the Father, “Let this cup pass from me.’”
This is a really good book.

Post not completed. A storm is a coming BRB Well, I guess it is completed as I lost that train of thought when a mighty rushing wind came and the temperature suddenly dropped. I’m posting from our back porch.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:40 am
by Hagoth
I think God actually made him drink a cup of coffee with no cream or sugar, so he could fully condescend with sinners who disobey the Word of Wisdom. Oops, sorry, I thought you said "bitter cup of Mormonism."

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:38 pm
by msnobody
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:40 am
I think God actually made him drink a cup of coffee with no cream or sugar, so he could fully condescend with sinners who disobey the Word of Wisdom. Oops, sorry, I thought you said "bitter cup of Mormonism."
Definitely a bitter cup, IMO. About once per year, I’ll try a sip of my husband’s coffee, and once per year, I say, “Nope, don’t like it, stuff still tastes terrible.”

I’m going to interject this here while it is on my mind. I’m thankful for everyone here. TBMs won’t have much to do with folks like me, but former LDS let me hang out here in Shady Acres. So, thank you!

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:43 pm
by moksha
To fully understand, one needs to meditate over this LDS koan:
The pretzel is the grand key.
When you have mastered the internal pretzelized logic, you will be permitted to enter the inner Sanctum of Apologetics found deep in the Provo Valley.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:41 pm
by Hagoth
moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:43 pm
To fully understand, one needs to meditate over this LDS koan:
The pretzel is the grand key.
When you have mastered the internal pretzelized logic, you will be permitted to enter the inner Sanctum of Apologetics found deep in the Provo Valley.
Pretzels and coffee? I don't think so. It's all about the donut, man: One Eternal Round.

Re: What is the "bitter cup" in Christianity?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:30 am
by kairos
Whenever i hear Mormons speak of how Jesus accomplished "most " of the atonement in the garden of gethesame, i haul out john 18:11 "Jesus said to peter(after peter had lopped off the ear of malchus) "put away your sword into its scabbard. Shall I not drink the cup that the Father gave me?"

since the scourging and crucifixion would occur in the next 12-14 hours, that is in the future, Jesus was saying in the garden he had NOT drunk the cup of his mission, that is to redeem humankind past, present and future of their sins,reconcile humankind to God and accomplish all that the atonement means(ok protestants ,catholics, Mormons etc disagree on some elements, but you get what i mean i hope).

was the cup bitter? if it means giving up one's life in an extremely suffering way physically and emotionally and every other way, i would say yes.

now why had mcconkie missed that john 18:11- he had to have if he cast his lot in the "atonement occurred in the garden" scenario.

just sayin'
k