Take the best leave the rest

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

To me, the best of the church is the sense of community (even if conditional) and some essentials like love one another - service.
The worst is financial corruption and cognitive distortions.

Trying to sort out my belief change from TBM (true believing Mormon)...

I've felt pain of:

1) Feeling betrayed & foolish - having fallen for lies and experiencing social shunning
2) No longer having belief support
3) No longer pushing pain away
- No more church-obsessed distractions (kind of like how addicts must face feelings after stopping their addiction that previously helped them escape unpleasant feelings)
-No more scapegoat/human sacrifice
4) Shame of breaking the rules I'd believed in for so long
5) Being lost and feeling alone
6) Strained relationships
7) Loss of faith - unsure what to believe and trust

I've felt joy of:

1) Release of fear and shame (stopping self-punishment for being human)
2) Seeing deeper (higher perspective- big picture) truths so I can love self & others better
3) Not being so judgmental, considering multiple valid perspectives
4) More understanding & empathy of previous faith stages (spirit, not letter, of the law)
Fowler's faith stages: http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
5) Progress
6) Freedom from herd mentality (which is often harmfully insane)
7) Getting my priorities straight (integrity & love of family & friends over peer pressure)
8) Helping our kids think, feel & do better, & have a stronger foundation based on truth - less likely "shelf" to inevitably come crashing down
9) Ability and freedom to take the best & leave the rest- independent reasonably intuitive thought
10) Exploring the spirit & power of belief without restrictive limitations
11) Belief tolerance - being in the church, not of it ;)

Any comments or anything you'd add or subtract?

User avatar
AmyJo
God
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by AmyJo »

It's most definitely a journey and process you're on. It may take years to resolve these issues you have. Being able to articulate them and identify them is helpful because you are giving them validation.

The longest journey begins with a single step. God bless. :smile:

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

Thanks, AmyJo!

User avatar
Bike275
Nursery
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:21 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Bike275 »

Many people say there is good in the church, and I believe that is the case. The problem I have is that it comes at a cost. For one to fit into the warm fuzzy there is another that agonizes with guilt. For every person that feels special there is another that the church causes to feel worthless.

If we are going to settle on the good in the church we must at least acknowledge it comes at a cost.
"Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous." --Voltaire

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

Bike275 wrote:Many people say there is good in the church, and I believe that is the case. The problem I have is that it comes at a cost. For one to fit into the warm fuzzy there is another that agonizes with guilt. For every person that feels special there is another that the church causes to feel worthless.

If we are going to settle on the good in the church we must at least acknowledge it comes at a cost.

You're right. The church regularly subjects members to mind-control. https://youtu.be/VUsOHsZIiA4 And when you're subjected to that from the time of birth (& your parents also maintain their cognitive distortions), the guilt and sense of worthlessness can feel overwhelming. In the cult/church mentality, is polarized (bi-polar) thinking: "You're either on the Lord's side or not." So, if we somehow do the long list of things we're shamed into doing - as part if the church's mission to "perfect the saints" - then we feel ok about ourselves. But if we fail in any area, suddenly in our minds, we're worthless because we're not perfectly on the Lord's side - which is always the case because nobody's perfect, and some of their list is dysfunctional.

The key is to breaking the power of mind-control. This will not happen over night, but I've learned a few things that are helping me. Correcting cognitive distortions http://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-c ... stortions/, healing life traps http://www.tunnelukkosi.fi/en/lifetraps.htm and redefining gospel terms in psychologically healthier ways...

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

...Examples of redefining gospel terms:

Anointed: Those who have been blessed, especially by God
Apostate: Name calling, ad-hominem attack use by those unaware they're in a cult
Baptism: Beautiful symbolic ritual to remind us of our spiritual and physical births, and rebirths
Believe: Firm hope that something is true
Celestial: Christ-like
Choose The Right: Do God's will above all
Commandments: scripture/socially learned... and spiritual personal circumstantial
Covenants with God: Covenants with LOVE
Faith: Hope that is acted on
Family: Those we love and are connected with - ultimately the entire world
Fast: To go without food for at least one meal, while praying with focused intention
Jesus Christ: Christ is not Jesus' last name, but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become
Kingdom of God: Spiritual connection with God within us
Last Days: Heaven's Reward Fallacy. "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, the kingdom of God is within you."
Lord's Side: All-or-Nothing thinking is "you are either on the Lord's side or you're not" - truth is we're mixed, depending on the circumstance
Love/Charity/Pure Love: Appreciating what is while striving for what is best - through trial and error - active faith
Marriage: Between a man and a woman, like a blueprint of intent to grow together in relating
Priesthood: Godly power
Repent: Correct one's thinking and related emotions and behavior - turning to God
Sin/Evil: Incorrect thought and related e-motions and behavior
Salvation: healed by correcting one's thinking
Satan/Adversary: unhealed part of us, incorrect thinking that ultimately causes suffering
Scriptures: Ancient writings of imperfect people which imperfect religious leaders have selected and often changed
Spirit: Intuitive sense that helps guide us - goal is to make subconscious more conscious through prayer and meditation
Temple: Body, mind and soul - place to connect spiritually
Tithing: 1/10 of increase, sometimes used by religious leaders to be rich, but is significantly intended for the poor (Deut 14:28-29)
Veil: Subjectively limited beliefs we are all subject to
Word of Wisdom: Spirit of wise choices in regards to health
Word: Spiritual/symbolic energy

User avatar
spotlight
God
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by spotlight »

Amore wrote:Any comments or anything you'd add or subtract?


The good that is in the church existed before the church did and will exist after its eventual demise. The church merely laid claim to common societal values that already existed within us. That is in large part why so many stumble at trying to leave the church. They have this false concept so ingrained in their thinking that they equate leaving the church with leaving that which is good within the church. It is another false dichotomy perpetuated to retain membership.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

bomgeography
Regional Representative
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by bomgeography »

I'm a tbm so you may think I'm brain washed but the church has blessed me in every aspect of my life from family friends and work.

User avatar
Maksutov
God
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Maksutov »

Patrick Mason has some comments on the subject:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpe ... Mormonism/

Though selectivity can indeed lead to relativism and the tyranny of individual choice divorced from any sense of community obligation or responsibility, when exercised in good faith and in the context of community it becomes a gift. In his discourse on spiritual gifts Paul emphasizes that within the body of Christ it is the Holy Spirit “who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.” The diffusion of gifts and perspectives is appointed by God, who “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” The purpose of this diversity within the body of Christ is not to create division, but paradoxically to create harmony and complementarity, “that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another” (NRSV, 1 Cor. 12:11, 18, 25).
In Christ’s cafeteria, your plate might look a little different than mine. But so long as we pay the price of admission and partake from the same buffet, there’s no reason we can’t all sit down and enjoy the feast together.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

User avatar
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Philo Sofee »

Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

It's why so many of us pick none of it because none of it is the best.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."

User avatar
spotlight
God
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by spotlight »

bomgeography wrote:I'm a tbm so you may think I'm brain washed but the church has blessed me in every aspect of my life from family friends and work.

I guess this was directed at me? I was a TBM myself at one point and felt the same way. But I eventually learned that there are some very basic fundamental facts that disprove LDS theological teachings.

The easiest to consider right off the bat being the geometric expansion in the number of resurrected beings being created with the passage of time. Every time a God is formed in LDS teachings they create a world and populate it with their spirit children. After some percentage falls away during the first estate the remainder attain the second estate and become resurrected. They become inseparably connected with a physical body for the rest of eternity. Those who made it to the highest degree of the celestial go on to populate their own worlds and so on.

This is an example of a geometric expansion or growth.

If you give each cycle 10,000 years from creating a world to resurrecting it with those who made it to the second estate you would, in less time than the life span of our own sun, have more resurrected beings than the number of elementary particles in the known universe. But supposedly this geometric growth has been going on indefinitely into the past.

That is not the only issue however. For simplicity consider that initially we have a universe populated with gods at maximum possible density (whatever that might be) that occupy a spherical region of the universe. As the gods increase in number the sphere grows in size and the gods on opposite sides of the sphere move apart from one another at an ever increasing rate. The rate at which the population doubles stays constant so the rate at which gods located at the ends of any diameter are moving apart increases without bound. (Each time the population doubles the radius has increased by a factor of 1.26).

LDS theology is so full of self-contradiction that it is a wonder so many can remain blind to it for as long as they do.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

bomgeography wrote:I'm a tbm so you may think I'm brain washed but the church has blessed me in every aspect of my life from family friends and work.


spotlight wrote:LDS theology is so full of self-contradiction that it is a wonder so many can remain blind to it for as long as they do.

It doesn't matter how illogical something may seem to you - people want to be loved - they want to feel like they belong. This is why people go along with LDS ways, and why many people on this forum go along with anti-Mormon knee-jerk responses. Most people prioritize social and financial aspects over truth. But what is truth anyway? Can you, Spotlight, say you know the truth and that everyone else is fooled? Wouldn't you then be just as those you can't stand?

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

It's why so many of us pick none of it because none of it is the best.

Polarized (bi-polar) thinking. It's either 100% the best, or 100% awful - to you because you haven't yet learned to correct this common cognitive distortion - the one that is also all-or-nothing logical fallacy. I still struggle with this, but I'm learning to see myself, others, groups (including Mormonism) and life in general in more color than black or white.

User avatar
spotlight
God
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by spotlight »

Amore wrote:It doesn't matter how illogical something may seem to you - people want to be loved - they want to feel like they belong.


You could use this as a defense for retaining membership in the KKK as well.

This is why people go along with LDS ways, and why many people on this forum go along with anti-Mormon knee-jerk responses.


You may be projecting a bit.
Knee-jerk? It took a while to transition from being TBM to having my name removed - several years. And I fought that logic as hard as I could, but in the end logic wins. Self-contradiction is a proof. I may not know what the truth is, but I certainly know what has been disproved. That's not nearly as hard to figure out. It's a sad situation when you have to prop up an obvious fraud in order to feel loved. I would question whether any real love is to be found if that is the situation.

Most people prioritize social and financial aspects over truth. But what is truth anyway? Can you, Spotlight, say you know the truth and that everyone else is fooled?


(see previous response)

Wouldn't you then be just as those you can't stand?

There is a distinction to be made between those taken in by a fraud and the fraud itself. Love the deluded but hate the delusion. Sound at all familiar?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

kairos
God
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by kairos »

Maksutov wrote:Patrick Mason has some comments on the subject:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpe ... Mormonism/

Though selectivity can indeed lead to relativism and the tyranny of individual choice divorced from any sense of community obligation or responsibility, when exercised in good faith and in the context of community it becomes a gift. In his discourse on spiritual gifts Paul emphasizes that within the body of Christ it is the Holy Spirit “who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.” The diffusion of gifts and perspectives is appointed by God, who “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” The purpose of this diversity within the body of Christ is not to create division, but paradoxically to create harmony and complementarity, “that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another” (NRSV, 1 Cor. 12:11, 18, 25).
In Christ’s cafeteria, your plate might look a little different than mine. But so long as we pay the price of admission and partake from the same buffet, there’s no reason we can’t all sit down and enjoy the feast together.


thanx -above is really good!

User avatar
Tchild
God
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:44 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Tchild »

Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

Well,

I have found that "the best of the church" is found perfectly fine outside of the church. No LDS church is needed to have the "best of the church". Family, friends, community, culture, rich life experiences...these are all available on par or superior to the best of the church. So, the LDS church is just irrelevant for my life now.

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Lemmie »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Amore wrote:My approach to the church, and really everything is to take the best and leave the rest.

In your opinion and experience what is the best of the church?
And what is not good?

It's why so many of us pick none of it because none of it is the best.

Agreed.

That's why one part of your comment, Amore, gave me some pause.
Amore wrote:To me, the best of the church is the sense of community (even if conditional)

If a sense of community is conditional, then what is being given up in order to keep it?

You can't disagree, but if you always agree, you'll be part of the community.

You can't express an alternate opinion, but if you always voice the accepted 'opinion,' you'll be part of the community.

You can't do anything deemed inappropriate, but if you always behave appropriately, as defined by your community, you'll be part of the community.

A sense of community under those conditions is really more of an assimilation by the community. Your entire individuality is 'conditional,' as in unacceptable if it differs from the community. If you are willing to entirely give up your individuality and be assimilated, then yes, you will have a sense of community.

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

Good points about how cult-members are led to believe that all good comes from the church, so rejecting church is rejecting good/God.

Amore
God
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Amore »

Maksutov wrote:Patrick Mason has some comments on the subject:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpe ... Mormonism/

Though selectivity can indeed lead to relativism and the tyranny of individual choice divorced from any sense of community obligation or responsibility, when exercised in good faith and in the context of community it becomes a gift. In his discourse on spiritual gifts Paul emphasizes that within the body of Christ it is the Holy Spirit “who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.” The diffusion of gifts and perspectives is appointed by God, who “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” The purpose of this diversity within the body of Christ is not to create division, but paradoxically to create harmony and complementarity, “that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another” (NRSV, 1 Cor. 12:11, 18, 25).
In Christ’s cafeteria, your plate might look a little different than mine. But so long as we pay the price of admission and partake from the same buffet, there’s no reason we can’t all sit down and enjoy the feast together.

I definitely “praise cafeteria Mormonism.” Really all Mormons selectively take from Mormonism. There are over 30,000 verses in the Bible and guessing about 10,000 Mormon scriptures plus numerous writings of church leaders which are quoted as if scripture. So of course, everyone is selective. The Book of Mormon is what makes Mormonism stand out among competitor$, so it is prioritized above the rest. The church’s name really ought to be the “the church of the Book of Mormon” or “the church of church leaders.”

The lack of inclusiveness in the church has bothered me for a while. Some members are great. My ex was non-Mormon & black & bore his very unorthodox but enthusiastic testimony & a few came up to him to thank him afterwards. But I know of others, like this guy with long hair and tattoos, which many avoided like the plague. With the recent statement kind of apologizing for the racial prejudice in the Book of Mormon, it seems the church is trying to please the masses, which are increasingly becoming those with darker skin. But it seems to come more from social pressure than integrity.

To bring up something more positive... locally, members of the LDS church care for one another better than most. My friend who left the church but went to a Christian church with her husband, lost both her parents within a week. As an only child whose extended family was scattered internationally - she felt very alone. She reached out to her pastor and others in their church and nobody responded. Compare that to the other day, I with about 10 others helped set up a funeral lunch for 170 (bringing dishes, setting up tables/chairs/decor etc). I love how most Mormons are so quick to pitch in and get amazing things done quite efficiently.

I have a question
God
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by I have a question »

I'll take Ensign Peak Advisors, the land bank and leave the rest, thanks.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10247
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Take the best leave the rest

Post by Res Ipsa »

This is something I agree with you on, Amore. I’m a cafeteria human, I guess.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

Post Reply