MAGA kids are Jerks

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Canpakes,

I don't think you is a Looney Tune. You typically bring a balanced perspective to any discussion, which I know I personally value.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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edit: nvmd. im at the gym and my tablet isn't cooperating

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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canpakes wrote:
honorentheos wrote:I think watching the video makes a person emotional. I don't think it is actually helpful but harmful to make that the criteria from which to evaluate what happened.


Sometimes, video adds very important context that helps to illustrate just what is really happening. ; )

I agree, and I believe I said above that the videos that have emerge have helped shed light on facts like who did what, when and to whom.

I commented that the viral video that started this isn't something I've watched and won't. I've commented that one can't determine things like a person's motive from video. And I've commented that seeing body language and facial expressions triggers subconscious reactions that bypass one's ability to detach and assess.

I've used the orchestral audition example in the past where the everyone claimed auditions were based on musicianship and it was not gender bias that led to males dominating major orchestras - until they went to blind auditions where no one making the decision could tell if the musician playing was a man or woman. And orchestras became more gender balanced as a result. Your eyes are connected to you biased brain.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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Civil rights marchers were/are frequently covered in the press by critics as a violent mob looking to destroy society. Others said they were by and large peaceful protesters looking for fair treatment. Being above petty emotional attachments, I refuse to look at actual footage of what they were doing and presume that the truth can be found in the middle of what people with obvious biases are saying about it.

Granted, I'm just a hoity toity intellectual from Madison with the benefit of listening to indie songs on college radio. I don't understand that people from affluent private schools in Kentucky don't have the benefit of knowing that racial taunting of Native Americans is bad. Man, what a dumpster fire people from Kentucky are. Still, I get the sense that some kinds of racial taunting are obvious enough that when you see them you can describe them that way and say it is a bad thing to do.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:Civil rights marchers were/are frequently covered in the press by critics as a violent mob looking to destroy society. Others said they were by and large peaceful protesters looking for fair treatment. Being above petty emotional attachments, I refuse to look at actual footage of what they were doing and presume that the truth can be found in the middle of what people with obvious biases are saying about it.

EAllusion, I don't think your responses in this thread make your case for you. So, enjoy this if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside but what I see from you is a lot of projection. Kid staring a guy down is obviously coming out of racism which we know because some other kids did the tomahawk chop in the video? Yeah. It's like Nazis or MMA fighters at the National Mall!

If you were going after the Black Hebrews, which the subsequent videos helped contextualize as the instigators, I'd be more respectful of your take here. But you are all about going after the kids while arguing they're being given a pass because "racism!" while giving the BH guys a bit of a pass because anyone who attends University has learned to ignore that kind of thing... ;)
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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honorentheos wrote:EAllusion, I don't think your responses in this thread make your case for you. So, enjoy this if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside but what I see from you is a lot of projection. Kid staring a guy down is obviously coming out of racism which we know because some other kids did the tomahawk chop in the video? Yeah. It's like Nazis or MMA fighters at the National Mall!
I never argued that. And you even had the benefit of reading what I was saying as opposed to watching a video of it.

I described the racial taunts as racial taunts and the kids behavior as a stare-down while those taunts occur in the background. I don't know if his specific motive for engaging in a smug stare-down had any racial elements, and it's not relevant as you seem to think it is. Again, because you choose to adopt a filter for how you understand the story in a misguided attempt at being above it all, you simply misunderstand what sparked the outrage in the first place.

I don't know how you can say people in that picture are MMA fighters. They could just be engaging in a smile-off. There's really no way to know because apparently context clues can't help us determine what's happening with people's body language.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

Post by EAllusion »

Quick question Honor:

Suppose instead of being a Native American, Nathan Phillips was black and signing a Christian hymn. And suppose instead of a MAGA hat, it was a Confederate flag hat. And suppose instead of tomahawk chops, the kids were pretending to eat fried chicken and watermelon while they mocked his signing and laughed at him. Do you understand why the teen doing a passive-aggressive stare down surrounded by his peers doing that would be a bad thing? Do you see why he might want to apologize for how that came off instead instead of claiming to be a innocent victim and selfless hero valiantly trying to defuse a tense situation in silent prayer?

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:I don't know how you can say people in that picture are MMA fighters. They could just be engaging in a smile-off. There's really no way to know because apparently context clues can't help us determine what's happening with people's body language.


I think honorentheos posts have been the most level headed and thoughtful. You have a bit of a ____ show going on that was not intentionally created by anyone from either of the two parties being discussed. Many were acting in predictable ways. Imperfections exist in everyone involved, and every group of more then a few people has there assholes. This event is way blown over, and what I think is missing is leadership, especially at the top level in the US that would try to bring the two parties together to create better understanding and resolve some of the issues.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:Do you see why he might want to apologize for how that came off instead instead of claiming to be a innocent victim and selfless hero valiantly trying to defuse a tense situation in silent prayer?


I don't. We shouldn't attack him for what other students were doing. He didn't act out in violent ways physically or verbally. I suspect he found himself in a situation he didn't want to be in and many of his reactions are based on a number of factors including ones where he is intentionally and unintentionally trying to look as good as he could in front of his peers. I suspect this inexperienced young man is being highly influenced afterward from parents and others as this story got blown way out of proportion. I can be a little forgiving of this teen and the Indian elder. Maybe not so much for those who made obvious racial actions or words.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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So, from the video, we can conclude that the Native American guy entered the group of students, walked up to this kid, then started playing his drum, and rather than disrespect the man by turning his back on him, the kid politely smiled and listened. . . right?
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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Dr. Shades wrote:So, from the video, we can conclude that the Native American guy entered the group of students, walked up to this kid, then started playing his drum, and rather than disrespect the man by turning his back on him, the kid politely smiled and listened. . . right?


Oh, for sure. That's exactly what's happening there. I'm sure if someone did some "polite smiling" to you, you'd interpret it that way.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:Quick question Honor:

Suppose instead of being a Native American, Nathan Phillips was black and signing a Christian hymn. And suppose instead of a MAGA hat, it was a Confederate flag hat. And suppose instead of tomahawk chops, the kids were pretending to eat fried chicken and watermelon while they mocked his signing and laughed at him. Do you understand why the teen doing a passive-aggressive stare down surrounded by his peers doing that would be a bad thing? Do you see why he might want to apologize for how that came off instead instead of claiming to be a innocent victim and selfless hero valiantly trying to defuse a tense situation in silent prayer?

Nazis or White Nationalists organizing around racial causes would be a different matter than a group of conservatives who rallied to protest abortion and engaged with a provocative group that antagonized the situation. Because the kid or some kids were wearing MAGA hats, they were being treated as if they had organized and were confronting an IP march in the same way as organized White Nationalists which turned out to be wrong. Am I surprised or wishing to excuse some kids having obvious racial insensitive and biases? Only in so far as I see the reaction to them as if they were on par with, I don't know, people showing up with Confederate Flags and SS armbands.

You're over the top in your reactions. And that is the sort of reaction that causes more harm than good.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:So, from the video, we can conclude that the Native American guy entered the group of students, walked up to this kid, then started playing his drum, and rather than disrespect the man by turning his back on him, the kid politely smiled and listened. . . right?


Oh, for sure. That's exactly what's happening there. I'm sure if someone did some "polite smiling" to you, you'd interpret it that way.

Again, this is part of my point about why your emotional response to the video is a problem. "If you saw the look in the kid's eye, you'd know he was a Hitler Youth 4channer."
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

Post by canpakes »

EAllusion wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:So, from the video, we can conclude that the Native American guy entered the group of students, walked up to this kid, then started playing his drum, and rather than disrespect the man by turning his back on him, the kid politely smiled and listened. . . right?


Oh, for sure. That's exactly what's happening there. I'm sure if someone did some "polite smiling" to you, you'd interpret it that way.

Shades, just in case you’re not catching EAllusion’s drift, your description of the chain of events is off a bit.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

Post by Xenophon »

canpakes wrote:Shades, just in case you’re not catching EAllusion’s drift, your description of the chain of events is off a bit.
I read Shades as a bit more tongue-in-cheek there, but I suppose he can clarify.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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Nazis or White Nationalists organizing around racial causes would be a different matter than a group of conservatives who rallied to protest abortion and engaged with a provocative group that antagonized the situation. Because the kid or some kids were wearing MAGA hats, they were being treated as if they had organized and were confronting an IP march in the same way as organized White Nationalists which turned out to be wrong. Am I surprised or wishing to excuse some kids having obvious racial insensitive and biases? Only in so far as I see the reaction to them as if they were on par with, I don't know, people showing up with Confederate Flags and SS armbands.


A Confederate flag hat is just about as racially provocative as a MAGA hat. They're both potent symbols of racial supremacy that users of them often insist is about other things both when it is and when it isn't. If they were in confederate flag hats, they'd be claiming it's about Southern pride and they'd probably believe that. That's why I switched it to see if you'd see it differently. It doesn't particularly matter, though, as he could've been wearing a black lives matter hat and the behavior in the video is the same. It's literally a kid aggressively staring down a Native American while his peers racially taunt him. People who read it otherwise are letting extreme bias color their ability to read a simple thing to read or are lying. It's not subtle. This is a bad thing. It's not the sort of bad thing that a person should have their life ruined over, but it is the sort of bad thing that a person should feel bad about, apologize for, and commit to being better than.

But, as canpakes correctly predicted and I did not, being MAGA means never having to say you're sorry.

You're over the top in your reactions. And that is the sort of reaction that causes more harm than good.


The important thing is that in every dispute, the truth is somewhere in the middle. When a white supremacist ran some people over in his car, he and his defenders claimed he was acting in self-defense. Others said he was trying to hurt people. If only people could see that it's just a matter of perspective and come to some compromise position.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

Post by EAllusion »

Xenophon wrote:
canpakes wrote:Shades, just in case you’re not catching EAllusion’s drift, your description of the chain of events is off a bit.
I read Shades as a bit more tongue-in-cheek there, but I suppose he can clarify.


No, he's serious.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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honorentheos wrote:Again, this is part of my point about why your emotional response to the video is a problem. "If you saw the look in the kid's eye, you'd know he was a Hitler Youth 4channer."


No, it's more like, "if you saw the video, the fact that he's engaging in a passive-aggressive stare down is just about as obvious as when two fighters are squaring off and they're smiling." If you can't see that, you've got a serious inability to read non-verbal cues or are engaged in some serious motivated reasoning.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Again, this is part of my point about why your emotional response to the video is a problem. "If you saw the look in the kid's eye, you'd know he was a Hitler Youth 4channer."


No, it's more like, "if you saw the video, the fact that he's engaging in a passive-aggressive stare down is just about as obvious as when two fighters are squaring off and they're smiling." If you can't see that, you've got a serious inability to read non-verbal cues or are engaged in some serious motivated reasoning.

I don't disagree he puffed up and was staring him down. First ____ post I made, man. I don't care about his subsequent comments to post hoc explain what happened. Where I disagree is with it being anything other than a kid who puffed up and didn't back down because that's how some people react in those situations. The race stuff is mind reading. Equating his choice to wear a MAGA hat with choosing to wear intentional White Nationalist symbols or Confederate Flags as a symbol of white pride is also mind reading. Because some people take it that way doesn't demand a person who supports Trump is inherently racist and choosing to wear it on their forehead.
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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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honorentheos wrote:I don't disagree he puffed up and was staring him down. First ____ post I made, man. I don't care about his subsequent comments to post hoc explain what happened. Where I disagree is with it being anything other than a kid who puffed up and didn't back down because that's how some people react in those situations. The race stuff is mind reading. Equating his choice to wear a MAGA hat with choosing to wear intentional White Nationalist symbols or Confederate Flags as a symbol of white pride is also mind reading. Because some people take it that way doesn't demand a person who supports Trump is inherently racist and choosing to wear it on their forehead.


You're aware that people who wear Confederate flag hats more often than not will claim it has nothing to do with racial symbolism and not infrequently believe that, right? They'll tell you they're just celebrating Southern heritage. Some say that cynically, but there are many people who genuinely think that. The counterargument is that it historically has been used as a symbol of racial supremacy, has its origins in that, and is used by white supremacists for that reason. You might not be a white supremacist, but you're wearing their colors, in other words. MAGA gear is very similar in that regard. It carries overt racial overtones even when people who wear it don't necessarily see it that way. You don't know if any person wearing it is a bigot, but they're wearing their colors. Because it's part of a large, active political movement, it might be easy to lose sight of that fact. Assuming the US doesn't devolve into a series of Donald Trump's as President, give it 15 years and the comparison will seem obvious in retrospect to you.

That's missing the point, though. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're puffing up against a Native American while your peers engaging in overt racial taunting of him, and the video of it goes viral, you probably should mea culpa that one. Even if he was accidentally participating in a hate flash mob while just trying to be an ordinary dick, that's the sort of thing you say "my bad" to and try to show some contrition over. Yes, these teens were being idiots. Yes, they might not all be white nationalists or whatever. Yes, their upbringing probably helps explain why they were behaving the way they were. This doesn't excuse it in the way you seem to think it does. It's still a bad thing to do and it's not overreacting to point that out.

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Re: MAGA kids are Jerks

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EAllusion wrote:That's missing the point, though. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're puffing up against a Native American while your peers engaging in overt racial taunting of him, and the video of it goes viral, you probably should mea culpa that one. Even if he was accidentally participating in a hate flash mob while just trying to be an ordinary dick, that's the sort of thing you say "my bad" to and try to show some contrition over. Yes, these teens were being idiots. Yes, they might not all be white nationalists or whatever. Yes, their upbringing probably helps explain why they were behaving the way they were. This doesn't excuse it in the way you seem to think it does. It's still a bad thing to do and it's not overreacting to point that out.


I think you are going to far in what you think the kid is doing. He didn't engage verbally or physically. The Indian elder picked him and out and stayed in front of him for minutes when he could have just keep moving throughout the group. I would suggest the kid was put in an uncomfortable situation in which he did not know what to do. I don't think the other guy did anything wrong either. The real problem here might be those who are trying to make a story here that doesn't exist.
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