Ted Haggard's Hypocrisy.

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Ray A

Post by Ray A »

This just came out in a Google news update:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed to resign as leader of the New Life Church Saturday after its independent investigative board recommended removal, saying he was guilty "of sexually immoral conduct."

"We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard," a statement from the church said. "Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct."


For the full report and other links: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227568,00.html

At least the NLC investigative board acted quickly, and that's to their credit.

The full statement from the investigative board:

The following is a statement released on Saturday by the New Life Church of Colorado Springs, Colorado, about the resignation of the Rev. Ted Haggard:

We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard. Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct.

The language of our church bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has "demonstrated immoral conduct" whether we must "remove the pastor from his position or to discipline him in any way they deem necessary."

In consultation with leading evangelicals and experts familiar with the type of behavior Pastor Haggard has demonstrated, we have decided that the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal. In addition, the Overseers will continue to explore the depth of Pastor Haggard's offense so that a plan of healing and restoration can begin.

Pastor Haggard and his wife have been informed of this decision. They have agreed as well that he should be dismissed and that a new pastor for New Life Church should be selected according to the rules of replacement in the bylaws.

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Post by Nortinski »

Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort


Mormonism has been discussed in the thread.

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Post by Nortinski »

Jersey Girl wrote:Hello Ray,

I was hoping not to become involved in a discussion like this on the internet but I feel compelled to do so. Beginning with a few opening comments for clarity.

1. Ted is involved in two associations if you will. (1) National Association of Evangelicals with 30 million members and (2) Senior Pastor of New Life Church with congregation of approximately 14,000 members. New Life has affiliated with it, the World Prayer Center which is located adjacent to the church itself. New Life is what one would describe as a mega church. Just wanting to add clarity there.

2. He immediately stepped down from both positions which I feel was appropriate to do.

3. Ted is nothing at all like Swaggart. You are not going to see Ted down on his knees in a public forum, slobbering and whining before the congregation. He is not prone to that type of theatrics. He is not an actor. So far as spirit led Pastors go...Ted is the real thing.

4. New Life, as well as Ted, have enjoyed a good reputation in the community and a good relationship with the community at large.

Here are a few items that cause me concern...holes in the stories on both sides.


Item #1:

Mike claims that Ted came to him for sex and that Mike did not provide Ted with meth. Mike claims that he only gave Ted a "connection" for buying meth.

Mike's voice mail recordings indicate that Ted (using the name Art - Arthur is Ted's middle name) was setting up a transaction with Mike and not a 3rd party.

Issue #2:

In his very first public statement on air, Ted denied knowing Mike.
In his second public statement on air, Ted admitted knowing Mike and calling Mike for meth. He denies a sexual relationship with Mike.


Mike (the accuser) did not pass a polygraph when it came to responses about a sexual relationship with Ted.

Issue #3:

Ted claims that he was referred to Mike for a massage during a stay at one of the Denver hotel/motels.

Mike denies that he could have been a referral from a hotel/motel and only (previously) advertised on the internet as a male escort.

I hope that people will take into consideration, inconsistencies on the part of both Mike and Ted, and avoid searching out blood in the water as you appeared to do in your opening post. You do not have your ducks in a row in your OP.

Jersey Girl



Jersey Girl,

someone recently called me a racist AND a homophobe on an internet forum a while back and, to put it mildly, I FLIPPED OUT. I went ape **** on my accuser. And that's all because they said I was racist and hated gays or was afraid of them. Whatever.

Now, if I was a minister and made crazy money doing so and I had a wife and kids and such and some guy came out adn said I was doing meth with him as he pounded me in the ass, I think it's safe to say my response would not be dignified. I would be mad as hell and sue the S.O.B. for every cent he had. That would be after I went and punched him in the face. The arrest for assault would so be worth it.

I would cheerfully submit to a hair follicle test.

This "minister" simply didn't behave in a manner that one would expect for a guy that was just accused of some stuff that he didn't do.

He's lying. He did the meth and he had gay sex with the guy. I suspect that eventually he might even go to jail for stealing church funds to pay for his meth clouded gay sex. If he does, he'll be able to get all the free gay sex he wants. Not much meth though.

Nort
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Post by Nortinski »

Ray A wrote:
Nortinski wrote:Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort


Mormonism has been discussed in the thread.


Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:
Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort


There are several other threads not on Mormonism and not in off-topic. Check them out. If you don't like this discussion, then go to another thread.

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Post by Nortinski »

Ray A wrote:
Nortinski wrote:
Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort


There are several other threads not on Mormonism and not in off-topic. Check them out. If you don't like this discussion, then go to another thread.


And how many of these "off-topic" threads were started by me? None. Because I have a basic understanding of the rules here. Did you miss them when you signed up?

Ray, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm certainly not Admin here. I just like to point things like this out before it turns into a free-for-all around here. This is a forum for Mormon related things. This meth head turd has nothing to do with the Mormon cult.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:And how many of these "off-topic" threads were started by me? None. Because I have a basic understanding of the rules here. Did you miss them when you signed up?


No Nort, I didn't miss them at all. In fact I keep reading even the additions, like this one:

SPECIAL RULES FOR THE TERRESTRIAL FORUM ONLY:

* No hardcore swearing. Words such as "damn," "ass," or "____" are acceptable (though not exactly ideal by any means), but if you wish to use the "F" word or the "S" word, please do so in the Telestial Forum only.


In other words you should avoid statements like this:

Jersey Girl,

someone recently called me a racist AND a homophobe on an internet forum a while back and, to put it mildly, I FLIPPED OUT. I went ape ____ on my accuser.


Nort wrote:


Ray, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm certainly not Admin here. I just like to point things like this out before it turns into a free-for-all around here. This is a forum for Mormon related things. This meth head turd has nothing to do with the Mormon cult.

Nort


Can you tell me where in any of the rules it says to not discuss anything but Mormonism? Shades might want to rectify this, or clarify this. When I began this thread I knew, inevitably, that the subject of Mormonism would arise. The Evangelicals have had a lot to say about Mormonism. Mitt Romney has to dialogue with them. The Evangelicals have written a lot about Mormonism, in fact many Mormon critics appear to have been Evangelicals. So I was waiting for someone to make the connection to Mormonism, which harmony did.

Now tell me, is discussing the personality traits, obsessively, of FAIRboard participants about Mormonism?? Do we have to know the details of how a FAIRboard partipicant wipes their ass? Is that about Mormonism? Is whether DCP a well known scholar about Mormonism, or about DCP?

So be my guest, make some more connections about Evangelicals and Mormons, like harmony did.
Last edited by Ray A on Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

harmony
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Post by harmony »

None of the witnesses supported him in this. Oliver Cowdery spoke his mind and lost his membership in the church partly because of this. David Whitmer in his Address To All Believers in Christ considered Joseph a fallen prophet. In fact, polygamy led to Joseph Smith's death. I can't think of any doctrine more divisive in Mormon history than polygamy, and it was in fact the church leaders' lies about polygamy, detailed in D. Michael Quinn's Dialogue article in 1985 that sent me inactive for three months. Polygamy and the lies surrounding it, and any lies, have always been a serious source of disturbance.


And yet, he continued to lie about it, even in the face of witnesses against him, until the day he died. And still today he is idolized, revered, almost worshipped.

Look at how many people were affected by Paul Dunn (I wasn't, because I never thought much of his stories in the first place, and didn't put him on a pedestal). I said that Haggard's good work was in helping the poor and his opposition to racism. He no doubt did good work. I think the record of the LDS church presidents throughout the last century doesn't even come close to what Haggard is now accused of, and if an LDS church president did something like this there would be mass apostasy, that's my guess.


I guess the early Saints wanted to believe so much, and invested so much into the religion, leaving family, friends, neighbors to follow Joseph, they were willing to listen to his lies.

They are still "only" leading 12 million people, and more than half have already left the church. Haggard was the leader of 30 million Evangelicals, and an influence on George Bush and US politics in general. I see few comparisons.


I see a lot of comparisons. I guess that's why we don't walk around in the same skin.

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Post by Jersey Girl »

Ray,

I just got back in and read your post as well as the link you provided from FoxNews. The outcome, of course, is not what I had hoped to read. The report states that he is going to issue a statement to his congregation tomorrow that will be read in both services.

My prediction remains the same. I think he will lay his cards on the table full out. I am certain that he already has in connection with the Overseer board.

Jersey Girl
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

harmony wrote:
And yet, he continued to lie about it, even in the face of witnesses against him, until the day he died. And still today he is idolized, revered, almost worshipped.


Why then do you still belong to the church founded by a liar? You still attend, don't you?

I guess the early Saints wanted to believe so much, and invested so much into the religion, leaving family, friends, neighbors to follow Joseph, they were willing to listen to his lies.


As I pointed out, many didn't. And the subject of polygamy caused enormous problems. They were not all following without question. Emma being polygamy's greatest foe.

I see a lot of comparisons. I guess that's why we don't walk around in the same skin.


That's true.

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Jersey Girl,

I can see the personal insights you have, regarding his wife, children, family. I am only looking at a man in public life who was condemning of homosexuality while apparently practising it, and in a very high position within a large organisation of people who implicitly trusted him. I think it's only natural to feel the way you do, having met the man, and you've given me some insights. Unfortunately, he will have to pay a big price, but I'll remember what you said.

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There but for the grace of God go I

Post by justthinking55 »

I think Evangelicals will survive this. Maybe they should take a leaf out of Billy Grahams' book. He knows the effect of what his fall would mean,. never counsels women alone, has staff check his hotel room and has a board look after the finances. There are thousends of Evangelical leaders who would fill the position.. Maybe somone from the Evangelical Left like Jim Wallis would be good.

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Post by RAJ »

Nortinski wrote:Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort


Okay so here's Haggard on Mormonism --- From an Oct 10 LA Times article on Romney:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... &cset=true

"...A favorite Romney quip is that in his church, "marriage is between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman."

This laugh line, and his reluctance to delve deeper into his beliefs, only add to the mystery of a faith that many Americans associate with polygamy — although that practice has long been outlawed by the church — and with customs such as marrying people after they have died and converting the dead.

"Evangelicals are appalled by all that," said Pastor Ted Haggard, president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals in Colorado Springs, Colo. "We evangelicals view Mormons as a Christian cult group. A cult group is a group that claims exclusive revelation. And typically, it's hard to get out of these cult groups. And so Mormonism qualifies as that."

In addition, Haggard said, evangelicals do not accept Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith as a prophet. "And we do not believe that the Book of Mormon has the same level of authority as the Bible," he said.

When Romney says that he accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, "we appreciate that," Haggard said. "But very often when people like Mormons use terms that we also use, there are different meanings in the theology behind those terms."

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Post by Nortinski »

Ray A wrote:Do we have to know the details of how a FAIRboard partipicant wipes their ass?


Don't be silly, we all know FAIRboard partipicants never wipe.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:
Ray A wrote:Do we have to know the details of how a FAIRboard partipicant wipes their ass?


Don't be silly, we all know FAIRboard partipicants never wipe.

Nort


Yeah Nort, I get ya.

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Post by Jersey Girl »

Ray,

He owned it. You can read both Ted and his wife Gayles statements by using the following link to New LIfe. The links to their statements are in the upper right hand of the screen. Both are pdf, sorry...I don't know how to copy and paste from pdf...


http://www.newlifechurch.org/

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Jersey Girl wrote:Ray,

He owned it. You can read both Ted and his wife Gayles statements by using the following link to New LIfe. The links to their statements are in the upper right hand of the screen. Both are pdf, sorry...I don't know how to copy and paste from pdf...


http://www.newlifechurch.org/


Here is the copy:

November 5, 2006

My Dear New Life Church Family,

I am so sorry. I am sorry for the disappointment, the betrayal, and the hurt. I am sorry for

the horrible example I have set for you.

I have an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness in my heart for the pain that you and I

and my family have experienced over the past few days. I am so sorry for the

circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment to all of you.

I asked that this note be read to you this morning so I could clarify my heart's condition

to you. The last four days have been so difficult for me, my family and all of you, and I


have further confused the situation with some of the things I've said during interviews

with reporters who would catch me coming or going from my home. But I alone am

responsible for the confusion caused by my inconsistent statements. The fact is, I am

guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.

I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve

been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy

victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone

would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that

were contrary to everything I believe and teach.

Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving

to be effective in me. Then, because of pride, I began deceiving those I love the most

because I didn’t want to hurt or disappoint them.

The public person I was wasn’t a lie; it was just incomplete. When I stopped

communicating about my problems, the darkness increased and finally dominated me. As

a result, I did things that were contrary to everything I believe.

The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are

true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry. Our church's

overseers have required me to submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack

Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my

mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical life. They will guide me through a program

with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family.

I created this entire situation. The things that I did opened the door for additional

allegations. But I am responsible; I alone need to be disciplined and corrected. An

example must be set.

It is important that you know how much I love and appreciate my wife, Gayle. What I did

should never reflect in a negative way on her relationship with me. She has been and

continues to be incredible. The problem was not with her, my children, or any of you. It

was created 100% by me.

I have been permanently removed from the office of Senior Pastor of New Life Church.

Until a new senior pastor is chosen, our Associate Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, will

assume all of the responsibilities of the office. On the day he accepted this new role, he

and his wife, Aimee, had a new baby boy. A new life in the midst of this circumstance—I

consider that confluence of events to be prophetic. Please commit to join with Pastor

Ross and the others in church leadership to make their service to you easy and without

burden. They are fine leaders. You are blessed.

I appreciate your loving and forgiving nature, and I humbly ask you to do a few things:

1. Please stay faithful to God through service and giving.

2. Please forgive me. I am so embarrassed and ashamed. I caused this and I have no

excuse. I am a sinner. I have fallen. I desperately need to be forgiven and healed.

3. Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was

in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly. So, forgive him

and, actually, thank God for him. I am trusting that his actions will make me, my

wife and family, and ultimately all of you, stronger. He didn’t violate you; I did.

4. Please stay faithful to each other. Perform your functions well. Encourage each

other and rejoice in God’s faithfulness. Our church body is a beautiful body, and

like every family, our strength is tested and proven in the midst of adversity.

Because of the negative publicity I’ve created with my foolishness, we can now

demonstrate to the world how our sick and wounded can be healed, and how even

disappointed and betrayed church bodies can prosper and rejoice.

Gayle and I need to be gone for a while. We will never return to a leadership role at

New Life Church. In our hearts, we will always be members of this body. We love

you as our family. I know this situation will put you to the test. I’m sorry I’ve created

the test, but please rise to this challenge and demonstrate the incredible grace that is

available to all of us.

Ted Haggard

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Post by Jersey Girl »

Ray,

Thank you for posting his message. What are is your impression of his statement? And could you also post his wife's message?

Jersey Girl

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Jersey Girl wrote:Ray,

Thank you for posting his message. What are is your impression of his statement?

Jersey Girl


It's an extraordinary and honest confession and request for forgiveness. If he had continued with any deception the criticisms would have justifiably continued as well, but I think it's hard to naysay a statement like that. Still, if he hadn't been exposed he would most likely not have owned up, which is why he probably thanked his accuser. His prolonged battles with temptation is something I think most believers who try to live according to the scriptures would relate to. Periods of success and failure, and finally abandonment, acceptance, and living a dual life. It could also be a lesson - if you can't live what you believe and teach, then don't lecture others while privately forgiving yourself for personal transgressions, but not others. He should have said nothing about homosexuality, but then, how could he not in his position? This may make him a more merciful person, hopefully, and much of that arrogance and pride will no longer show, and there's no question in my mind it was there in the Dawkins interview. Whether he can sustain this change is his next battle, but maybe he will have more empathy for people with the same urges, regardless of whether it's hetero or homo sexuality. His hypocrisy was in not recognising this, and in self-righteously condemning others with the same urges but who didn't hide under the veneer of religion, and this is why Mike Jones exposed him. He thought it was hypocritcal.
I think Haggard had better find out what sort of lifestyle he really wants to live, and doesn't return to this maddening and hypocritical duality.

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

Gayle Haggard's statement:

November 5, 2006

Dear Women of New Life Church,

I am so sorry for the circumstances that have led me to write this letter to you today. I

know your hearts are broken; mine is as well. Yet my hope rests steadfastly in the Lord

who is forever faithful.

What I want you to know is that I love my husband, Ted Haggard, with all my heart. I am

committed to him until death “do us part.” We started this journey together and with the

grace of God, we will finish together.

If I were standing before you today, I would not change one iota of what I have been

teaching the women of our church. For those of you who have been concerned that my

marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great

difficulties, know that this will never again be the case. My test has begun; watch me. I

will try to prove myself faithful.

I love you all so much, especially you young women—you were my delight.

To all the church family of new Life Church—Ted and I are so proud of you. You are all

we hoped you would be. In our minds, there is no greater church.

As you try to make sense of these past few days, know that Ted believes with all his heart

and soul everything he has ever taught you, those things you are putting into practice. He

is now the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior.

We are grateful for your prayers for our family.

I hold you forever in my heart,

Gayle Haggard

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