Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

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Thank you! And, once again, Rollo caught me on the details I am too lazy to look up for myself!

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Mister Scratch wrote:Eh. I'm not so sure about the term "lynched." While I understand and agree that, technically speaking, it can refer to the results of mob activity, I think that, idiomatically speaking, "shot" or "murdered" or "martyred" is more accurate. The word "lynch" just conjures up too much racist imagery, imo.


Just google Joseph Smith lynched. It is a common grouping of words.

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Post by Mister Scratch »

Plutarch wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Eh. I'm not so sure about the term "lynched." While I understand and agree that, technically speaking, it can refer to the results of mob activity, I think that, idiomatically speaking, "shot" or "murdered" or "martyred" is more accurate. The word "lynch" just conjures up too much racist imagery, imo.


Just google Joseph Smith lynched. It is a common grouping of words.


Yes, I agree that it is indeed used commonly enough. But, imo, the other words are better/more accurate due to the fact that they are not freighted with the same racist connotation as the word "lynched."

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Post by moksha »

I think the point of justice now being meted out in a less lawless manner is well taken. As far a whether one point in time is more moral than another is hard to say. There are different types of lawbreaking now than there was then. However lawbreaking and/or unethical conduct existed in both time periods. I have always thought the espousal of declining morals had something either to do with selling more waffle irons or else served as padding for sermon topics.

Had Joseph been arrested today, he would not have had any worry of lynch mobs. Perhaps the trial of Warren Jeff will be indicative of the type of treatment he would have received.
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:
harmony wrote:And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched.

Huh? Joseph didn't "try to escape" until a mob invaded the jail and shot at him and killed his brother. And, technically, Joseph was "lynched" (usually refers to a hanging, but can be applied to any form of mob justice where there is no due process of law, such as in Carthage).


I thought Lynched = hanged illegally. If that's not so, just disregard what I said.


uhh what about your trying to escape botch?

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Post by OUT OF MY MISERY »

Are not getting caught up in the semantics of the words here???
Like Lynched??

And the word does bring up to many racial images and have we not learned from our past yet, MR BOURNE.
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
harmony wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:
harmony wrote:And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched.

Huh? Joseph didn't "try to escape" until a mob invaded the jail and shot at him and killed his brother. And, technically, Joseph was "lynched" (usually refers to a hanging, but can be applied to any form of mob justice where there is no due process of law, such as in Carthage).


I thought Lynched = hanged illegally. If that's not so, just disregard what I said.


uhh what about your trying to escape botch?

Jason


Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.

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Post by moksha »

coffeecat wrote:Are not getting caught up in the semantics of the words here???
Like Lynched??

And the word does bring up to many racial images and have we not learned from our past yet, MR BOURNE.

While it could bring up racial images, lynch mobs have been known to lynch all races. This lynching as well
as many others had an equal opportunity quality about them.
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

harmony wrote:Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.

I have to disagree with you on this one, Harmony. He was shot before (and after) he fell out the window. Yes, Joseph was trying to "escape" a mob intent on murdering him, but I view his actions as a typical human survival instinct. I just don't see any connection between what Joseph did and the more typical prison break (like portrayed by the "Andy Dufresne" character in "Shawshank Redemption" or Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke" -- yes, I'm a movie lover!). I'm not sure I like the word "martyr," either, but he was definitely murdered without justification or due process, imo.
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Post by OUT OF MY MISERY »

Joseph Smith did not have the due process he was entitled to. He was murdered without justification.

You know those people that jumped from the twin towers on 9/11 are they now considered MARTYR'S because their survival instincts kicked in???
All of these people were murdered without justification and without receiving their due process rights.
Were these victims not lynched as well, maybe not literally, but figuratively?
i am wondering are they MARTYR'S as well as Joseph Smith.

Well we cannot ask them because they are all dead, but I don't think anyone was shooting at them.

I have not read anything in print that says someone was shooting at them so we will just have believe that that they were not being shot at.

I guess though we must believe what is written about Joseph Smith because it is written down and anyone that anything to with it is dead.

After all we can no longer verify anything, so we must believe.
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by harmony »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
harmony wrote:Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.

I have to disagree with you on this one, Harmony. He was shot before (and after) he fell out the window.


Disagreeing with me is expected. Some of the world's best apologists do that regularly. ;-)

I thought he leapt from the window, screaming the Masonic help call, expecting his fellow Masons to come to his aid. Falling from the window and leaping from the window is two different actions. The latter is active; the former is passive.

Yes, Joseph was trying to "escape" a mob intent on murdering him, but I view his actions as a typical human survival instinct.


So it's not like he went to his execution like a lamb to the slaughter, tied up and burned to death or hung on a cross until dead. He fought back, defended himself, called for help.

I just don't see any connection between what Joseph did and the more typical prison break (like portrayed by the "Andy Dufresne" character in "Shawshank Redemption" or Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke" -- yes, I'm a movie lover!).


I was thinking of the more common escape of leaping out a window and running away.

I'm not sure I like the word "martyr," either, but he was definitely murdered without justification or due process, imo.


Murdered and martyred are two different things. Were the Mountain Meadows Massacre victims martyred or just murdered?

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Mister Scratch »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:I have to disagree with you on this one, Harmony. He was shot before (and after) he fell out the window. Yes, Joseph was trying to "escape" a mob intent on murdering him, but I view his actions as a typical human survival instinct. I just don't see any connection between what Joseph did and the more typical prison break (like portrayed by the "Andy Dufresne" character in "Shawshank Redemption" or Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke" -- yes, I'm a movie lover!). I'm not sure I like the word "martyr," either, but he was definitely murdered without justification or due process, imo.


Hey, Rollo---

What's your take on the credibility of the story that Joseph Smith made the "masonic sign of distress," and called out, "Is there no help for the widow's son?" before he died? (As it is recounted in NMKMH, for example.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

harmony wrote:Disagreeing with me is expected. Some of the world's best apologists do that regularly.

Hey, me too!!!

I thought he leapt from the window, screaming the Masonic help call, expecting his fellow Masons to come to his aid. Falling from the window and leaping from the window is two different actions. The latter is active; the former is passive.

He did cry out the Masonic sign, while straddling the window sill -- he was shot while still there (both from the inside and outside), and then fell to the ground.

So it's not like he went to his execution like a lamb to the slaughter, tied up and burned to death or hung on a cross until dead. He fought back, defended himself, called for help.

The "lamb to the slaughter" remark refered to his voluntarily going to Carthage and turning himself in, not the actual lynching, imo. With over a hundred Carthage Greys outside the jail, and many others storming up the stairs with guns blazing toward the door of Joseph's room, I see little difference between whether a bullet or a rope killed Joseph. If Joseph had been taken alive, I suspect the mob would have then hung him or lined him up against the stone wall before a firing squad. Regardless of how they did the deed, he would have been just as dead -- and still a victim of mob frenzy.

I was thinking of the more common escape of leaping out a window and running away.

For me, it depends on why the prisoner is running away -- is it simply to escape to freedom after a long incarceration ... or is it a natural reflex when a mob is trying to murder you right then and there? The latter just doesn't seem like the typical "prison escape" to me, and certainly does not rise to any level of justification for taking a fleeing prisoner down.

Murdered and martyred are two different things. Were the Mountain Meadows Massacre victims martyred or just murdered?

I agree that "martyrdom" may be too strong of a word to describe what happened. But it was undoubtedly murder.
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Mister Scratch wrote:What's your take on the credibility of the story that Joseph Smith made the "masonic sign of distress," and called out, "Is there no help for the widow's son?" before he died? (As it is recounted in NMKMH, for example.

Based on what I have read, it seems entirely plausible and likely. I've read of others using the same sign when in peril (masons in non-Mormon situations), so I see no reason why he shouldn't (we all know how deeply Masonry influenced Joseph in the last years of his life). Putting myself in his shoes, at the very moment he was about to be blown away, I'm sure I would have tried the same thing if I had any hope it might work. In addition, I would have done exactly as Joseph did if I had a pistol in that situation -- take down as many of the mob as possible before being killed. Honestly, I can't imagine the horror he and his associates must have gone through in those last moments. I'm disgusted to even think about it.

This all reminds me. Years ago, I visited Nauvoo (before the temple was rebuilt and when it was still a sleepy little town). I'm a bit of a history buff, and knew where in the little neighboring village of Warsaw, Illinois (a few miles from Carthage and Nauvoo) that Thomas Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, the most rabid of all anti-Mormon publications of the time, had maintained his office in 1844. Sharp was the man credited with fomenting the greatest hatred toward the Mormons, and he was believed to have participated in the murders at Carthage (he was later tried, and acquitted with the other defendants -- by the way, when later asked if he did participate in the murders, all he had to say was: "Well, the jury said not."), and a few years later he helped burn down the Nauvoo Temple. I found what used to be his newspaper office (now an abandoned shell among many other vacant storefronts along main street in Warsaw), and took great pleasure in delivering the largest loogie I could muster onto the front glass of the old newspaper office. Oh, I know, this was petty and juvenile, but somehow it made me feel better. I do not idolize Joseph Smith like many Mormons do, and am fully aware of certain actions by him that I deem wrong and immoral. But he did not deserve what Tom Sharp and others did to him (and Hyrum) in Carthage. Sharp, who lived a long life and was very successful (as mayor, lawyer, judge, etc.), was nothing more than a murderer to me, and all his accomplishments in later life cannot overcome what he did in Carthage. And while my little bit of spittle on his old office made no difference one way or the other in anyone's scheme of things, part of me hopes that at least Sharp was aware of it from the hereafter. ;)
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

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Post by Jason Bourne »

coffeecat wrote:Are not getting caught up in the semantics of the words here???
Like Lynched??

And the word does bring up to many racial images and have we not learned from our past yet, MR BOURNE.


I was not talking about that. I was talking about Harmony's silly notion that Smith was trying to escape.

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Post by harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
coffeecat wrote:Are not getting caught up in the semantics of the words here???
Like Lynched??

And the word does bring up to many racial images and have we not learned from our past yet, MR BOURNE.


I was not talking about that. I was talking about Harmony's silly notion that Smith was trying to escape.

Jason


Wouldn't you have tried to escape, if a mob [a little Freudian slip there] was coming up the steps for you?

*edited to correct spelling.
Last edited by harmony on Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jason Bourne »

Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.



Oh come now. It is ridiculous for you to argue that he was shot while trying to escape. Why not argue he was drawing away the fire from the others in the room. You honestly think he needed to sit passively by to be a martyr? Fine. But your comments make it look like Joseph was trying to escape and that is why he got shot.

Nonsense. Your hostility clouds your ability to be rational about things at times.

Jason

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Jason Bourne »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:This all reminds me. Years ago, I visited Nauvoo (before the temple was rebuilt and when it was still a sleepy little town). I'm a bit of a history buff, and knew where in the little neighboring village of Warsaw, Illinois (a few miles from Carthage and Nauvoo) that Thomas Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, the most rabid of all anti-Mormon publications of the time, had maintained his office in 1844. Sharp was the man credited with fomenting the greatest hatred toward the Mormons, and he was believed to have participated in the murders at Carthage (he was later tried, and acquitted with the other defendants -- by the way, when later asked if he did participate in the murders, all he had to say was: "Well, the jury said not."), and a few years later he helped burn down the Nauvoo Temple. I found what used to be his newspaper office (now an abandoned shell among many other vacant storefronts along main street in Warsaw), and took great pleasure in delivering the largest loogie I could muster onto the front glass of the old newspaper office. Oh, I know, this was petty and juvenile, but somehow it made me feel better. I do not idolize Joseph Smith like many Mormons do, and am fully aware of certain actions by him that I deem wrong and immoral. But he did not deserve what Tom Sharp and others did to him (and Hyrum) in Carthage. Sharp, who lived a long life and was very successful (as mayor, lawyer, judge, etc.), was nothing more than a murderer to me, and all his accomplishments in later life cannot overcome what he did in Carthage. And while my little bit of spittle on his old office made no difference one way or the other in anyone's scheme of things, part of me hopes that at least Sharp was aware of it from the hereafter. ;)


Cool story and I am glad you did it.

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Post by harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.



Oh come now. It is ridiculous for you to argue that he was shot while trying to escape. Why not argue he was drawing away the fire from the others in the room. You honestly think he needed to sit passively by to be a martyr? Fine. But your comments make it look like Joseph was trying to escape and that is why he got shot.

Nonsense. Your hostility clouds your ability to be rational about things at times.

Jason


I would be the first to agree with you, Jason (about my hostility clouding my judgment sometimes), but that doesn't change the facts: he was not a martyr, he was a prisoner and therefore any movement outside the jail could rationally be understood as an escape attempt no matter who was climbing the steps at the time, he was indeed murdered as he fell/jumped from the window, . while trying to escape his fate.

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Post by Jason Bourne »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.



Oh come now. It is ridiculous for you to argue that he was shot while trying to escape. Why not argue he was drawing away the fire from the others in the room. You honestly think he needed to sit passively by to be a martyr? Fine. But your comments make it look like Joseph was trying to escape and that is why he got shot.

Nonsense. Your hostility clouds your ability to be rational about things at times.

Jason


No damn it!!! I would have shot them. See my gun!!! Over at the left there? I am Jason Bourne!

Ok, now that that is out of me, of course I would. But that does not mean he was trying to escape like run away before he was shot at. I think Rollo summed it up pretty well.

Jason

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Jason Bourne wrote:Cool story and I am glad you did it.

It probably shows a bit too much of my warped mind. ;)
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

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