Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

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Dr. Shades
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Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Dr. Shades »

A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Polygamy Porter »

Dr. Shades wrote:A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.


Quick! Toss the embattled mo'pologist a bible CRUTCH before he collapses! "Wooool, if if you umm read in the bible in that one verse when that one um prophet um gets, umm well...."

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Post by Nortinski »

He's the man. Tal I mean. Smith was a pathetic twit.

Nort
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Jason Bourne »

Dr. Shades wrote:A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.


The problem with this argument is you assume that the apoligetic argument centers on plural marriage only. If it does then you are right. If not then the argument makes more sense especially when used for Joseph Smith's involvement in treadure seeking and the like.

Jason

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Jason Bourne »

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.[


Not so fast. They killed him becasue why exactly? Was it because they thought him immoral or feared his power or perhaps because they were immoral. Gee maybe the brilliant singer never thought of that Aye Tally my boy.

Jason

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Post by Jason Bourne »

Nortinski wrote:He's the man. Tal I mean. Smith was a pathetic twit.

Nort


Another brilliant observation for the village, er I mean board, idiot.

Jason

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by rcrocket »

Dr. Shades wrote:SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.


This really demonstrates the monoric content of this board. Men, painted as Indians or with faces blackened with gunpowder, stormed a jail with the express objective to commit a highly immoral act of depriving men of their lives without process. Only Joseph Smith was named in the arrest warrant, yet these men fired into the building knowing that it was filled with innocent men.

Joseph Smith was incarcerated only for the charge of "treason," a non-bailable offense. He had bailed out on other offenses all related to the Nauvoo Expositor. I assume by your comment that you consider "treason" an immoral act worthy of death, and that Smith didn't need a trial. I ask you, since RFM won't let me post, what act did Smith undertake which would have likely led to his conviction for treason?

Or, do you seriously believe that Smith didn't need a trial, and that he was appropriately lynched.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by harmony »

Plutarch wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.


This really demonstrates the monoric content of this board. Men, painted as Indians or with faces blackened with gunpowder, stormed a jail with the express objective to commit a highly immoral act of depriving men of their lives without process. Only Joseph Smith was named in the arrest warrant, yet these men fired into the building knowing that it was filled with innocent men.

Joseph Smith was incarcerated only for the charge of "treason," a non-bailable offense. He had bailed out on other offenses all related to the Nauvoo Expositor. I assume by your comment that you consider "treason" an immoral act worthy of death, and that Smith didn't need a trial. I ask you, since RFM won't let me post, what act did Smith undertake which would have likely led to his conviction for treason?

Or, do you seriously believe that Smith didn't need a trial, and that he was appropriately lynched.


Before you call anyone a moron, it would behoove you to understand what the thread is about. This thread isn't about Joseph's sojourn in Liberty Jail. This thread is about the difficulty in comparing morals between 19th and 21st century American society. Try to figure out the topic before you make disparaging comments about the posters and the board in general.

Shades was pointing out that Joseph was killed by the society at the time, a society that we are told was, by definition, better than our current society, since our current society is worse than the one that killed the Christ.

And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched. Do you have any comments about the real topic of the thread or can we assume you have no clue how presentism works either?

If you'd like to discuss Joseph's last days, go ahead and start another thread.

rcrocket

Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by rcrocket »

harmony wrote:
Plutarch wrote:


Forgive me for reacting to a direct quote in the opening post. I will do my best to figure out the unwritten rules around here.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by harmony »

Plutarch wrote:
harmony wrote:
Plutarch wrote:


Forgive me for reacting to a direct quote in the opening post.


go ahead and start another thread about Joseph's last days. Many of us have equally vehement opinions about that piece of Mormon history, and we could have an interesting discussion (although maybe you should start the thread in Telestial, since that subject tends to be one that brings out the flames).

I will do my best to figure out the unwritten rules around here.


It's not the unwritten rules that are the most helpful; it's the written ones. On this forum (Terrestial) we like to keep things civil, although we aren't perfect at that either. Sorry if you felt I was coming down too hard on you.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Plutarch wrote:Only Joseph Smith was named in the arrest warrant ....

Hyrum and others were also named in the original writ for riot. Both Joseph and Hyrum were named in the later writ for treason.

... yet these men fired into the building knowing that it was filled with innocent men.

Those in the jail not under arrest chose to be there, knowing how volatile the situation was. I admire their bravery.

Joseph Smith was incarcerated only for the charge of "treason," a non-bailable offense.

Actually, it was a "bailable" offense, but could only be fixed by a circuit judge (the closest was a day's ride away from Carthage). Given the serious charge of treason, however, bail would have been unlikely.

He had bailed out on other offenses all related to the Nauvoo Expositor.

Correct. A $500 bail for each was posted, but the writ of treason (for declaring martial law in Nauvoo) was issued before they could get out of town, and they were re-arrested.

I ask you, since RFM won't let me post, what act did Smith undertake which would have likely led to his conviction for treason?

The treason charge related to Joseph's declaring martial law in Nauvoo (and perhaps mobilizing the Nauvoo Legion, but I'm not sure this was part of the formal charge).

Or, do you seriously believe that Smith didn't need a trial, and that he was appropriately lynched.

I don't think anyone can be "appropriately lynched." What happened in Carthage was wrong, under any standard, imo. I simply cannot fathom the hatred that must exist to turn ordinary law-abiding citizens into murderous savages (like the Carthage Greys, but the same could be applied to the Mormons who participated in the Mountain Meadows Massacre).

by the way, the legal info above came from Dallin Oaks's and Marvin Hill's Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith, pp. 15-19.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by The Dude »

Dr. Shades wrote:Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.


FIRST- I think it is an instance of Internet Mormon vs. Chapel Mormon. The Chapel Mormons are the ones who really think morality has always been the same, and modern society is getting worse. They don't have to use the apologist's appeal to presentism fallacy, because they simply dismiss any claim that makes Joseph Smith look bad as an anti-Mormon lie. Most Internet Mormons have a more sophisticated grasp of the evidence (relatively speaking) and therefore use more sophisticated means to justify the actions of the founding prophet. There may be other problems with the presentism fallacy, but I don't thing this is quite right.

SECOND- Joseph Smith was killed by a mob acting outside the law. That immoral act was as worse, IMO, than anything Joseph Smith did, and cannot be used to exemplify the judgement of 19th century standards.

I enjoy Tal's style, but the RfM board is not sufficient to challenge him when his logic strays. I wish he would come over here and play with us for a change.

Yoda

Post by Yoda »

I enjoy Tal's style, but the RfM board is not sufficient to challenge him when his logic strays. I wish he would come over here and play with us for a change.



Does anyone have his email address? He would probably enjoy Shades' and Kevin's board.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Jason Bourne »

Before you call anyone a moron, it would behoove you to understand what the thread is about. This thread isn't about Joseph's sojourn in Liberty Jail. This thread is about the difficulty in comparing morals between 19th and 21st century American society. Try to figure out the topic before you make disparaging comments about the posters and the board in general.


Well I understand the subject and I noted that the argument maed in more of a broad context the Herr Bachman made it.

Shades was pointing out that Joseph was killed by the society at the time, a society that we are told was, by definition, better than our current society, since our current society is worse than the one that killed the Christ.



Where are we told this?

And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched.



Yes he was shot but not while trying to escape. Unless you call trying to jump out the window while men are storming the room your ae a prisoner in and shooting guns at you in trying to escape. Joseph was not trying to escape when the men stormed the room. Try not to distort things.


Jason

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by rcrocket »

harmony wrote:It's not the unwritten rules that are the most helpful; it's the written ones. On this forum (Terrestial) we like to keep things civil, although we aren't perfect at that either. Sorry if you felt I was coming down too hard on you.


Where is the written rule which says I should not respond to a statement in the opening thread?

Don't go about apologizing to me. I am Null H.

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Post by gramps »

I think it would be great to get Tal over here. You can find his e-mail attached to any of his posts at RfM. Does someone want to invite him? Maybe Dr. Shades?
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Post by Mister Scratch »

Null! I thought that was you. It was the "you guys just talk about FAIR!" comment that clued me in. Welcome! I bet you never thought you'd see me say this, but I missed you, old friend.

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Plutarch wrote:I am Null H.

Welcome, Bob -- long time, no hear.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

harmony wrote:And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched.

Huh? Joseph didn't "try to escape" until a mob invaded the jail and shot at him and killed his brother. And, technically, Joseph was "lynched" (usually refers to a hanging, but can be applied to any form of mob justice where there is no due process of law, such as in Carthage).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by harmony »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
harmony wrote:And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched.

Huh? Joseph didn't "try to escape" until a mob invaded the jail and shot at him and killed his brother. And, technically, Joseph was "lynched" (usually refers to a hanging, but can be applied to any form of mob justice where there is no due process of law, such as in Carthage).


I thought Lynched = hanged illegally. If that's not so, just disregard what I said.

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Post by Mister Scratch »

Eh. I'm not so sure about the term "lynched." While I understand and agree that, technically speaking, it can refer to the results of mob activity, I think that, idiomatically speaking, "shot" or "murdered" or "martyred" is more accurate. The word "lynch" just conjures up too much racist imagery, imo.

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