Daniel C. Peterson: well-respected scholar? or not?

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Pahoran
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Post by Pahoran »

Runtu wrote:OK, I'll bite, Pahoran. Who was the government official, and how was the invitation made? I just read a press release about Dr. Peterson's tour of New Zealand and Australia wherein his visit is described as follows:

Professor Daniel Peterson will explore the rights of ethnic and religious minorities, and
Islamic relationships with non­Muslim nations. His visit to Australia and New Zealand in
September is to enlighten opinion leaders from government, media, academic, business and
religious fields.


Given this stated goal, I'd be surprised if it weren't Peterson et al. who requested the enlightening meeting.

The "government official" in question was the Minister of Immigration. I forget his name, and know only one rather irrelevant tidbit about his reputation. I don't know how the meeting was set up; no doubt New Zealand cabinet members have so much time on their hands that they can afford to meet with every foreigner without any government clout who just happens along. Perhaps they regularly have tourist groups trooping through their offices in the Beehive.

Or perhaps not.

Regards,
Pahoran

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Post by moksha »

Pahoran wrote:Do any of you really believe that substance had anything to do with your banning?

Or rather, is that something you keep repeating to each other, in much the same way as convicts tell each other how innocent they all are?

Regards,
Pahoran

Oh no, convicted and sentenced in your rhetoric and in Juliann's post telling us we were the chaff that was winnowed from the FAIR wheat to be burned in an unquenchible holy fire. Pretty tough treatment for lacking substance wouldn't you say? If only we could have been pitbulls for the Lord.

by the way, Pokatator was one of my favorites over there. He was a cute little spud.
Last edited by moksha on Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Who Knows »

Pahoran wrote:In every single case that I actually know anything about, persistence--in flouting board rules and/or trying to do end-runs around moderator decisions, such as by creating sock-puppets to avoid queueing--was indeed a critical factor.


Wow, you got me there. You just refuse to give an inch to anyone here. Your refusal to do so is very telling, and the reason most people just roll their eyes when they read your posts. And I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on this board...

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Post by Runtu »

Maybe you could ask Dr. Peterson who extended the invitation. Given the stated goals of his visit, why wouldn't we expect BYU to have asked for the meeting? And sneering that Dr. Peterson is just one of a gaggle of tourists is beneath someone of your eminent stature.

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Post by Runtu »

Who Knows wrote:
Pahoran wrote:In every single case that I actually know anything about, persistence--in flouting board rules and/or trying to do end-runs around moderator decisions, such as by creating sock-puppets to avoid queueing--was indeed a critical factor.


Wow, you got me there. You just refuse to give an inch to anyone here. Your refusal to do so is very telling, and the reason most people just roll their eyes when they read your posts. And I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on this board...


It's been a while since I hung out over there, but really, they've purged a lot of the gentler souls over there, which surprises me.

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Post by Pahoran »

Who Knows wrote:
Pahoran wrote:In every single case that I actually know anything about, persistence--in flouting board rules and/or trying to do end-runs around moderator decisions, such as by creating sock-puppets to avoid queueing--was indeed a critical factor.


Wow, you got me there. You just refuse to give an inch to anyone here. Your refusal to do so is very telling, and the reason most people just roll their eyes when they read your posts. And I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on this board...

Where's the inch to give? The shared paranoia about FAIR is delusional. Why should I "give an inch" on a baseless and scurrilous accusation?

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Pahoran

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Post by Pokatator »

Pahoran wrote:Do any of you really believe that substance had anything to do with your banning?

Or rather, is that something you keep repeating to each other, in much the same way as convicts tell each other how innocent they all are?

Regards,
Pahoran


Paharon you're the one that brought up substance not me. You think? you have substance? and you don't repeat yourself? Wow, check the mote in your eye.

If your are so knowledgeable about why I was banned, enlighten me and everyone else here. Explain all the bannings please, specifics please. If I was banned for my posts it is from posts here not at FAIR, I have posted very little at FAIR for the last several months.

What is it the business of FAIR what I post or anyone else posts here? FAIR seems to hate Godwin's Law, but they are functioning like Nazis. Banning, censorship, stopping scholarship, locking threads and banning people is like burning books. FAIR wants to control the whole WWW like a dictator.

You have access to my posts and I don't, could you be a good little SS soldier and post them over here for me? Please post my last post here, my last five, my last ten, how about all of them. Then show me and everyone else where I broke FAIR rules, show us the "substance".

Yoda

Post by Yoda »

In every single case that I actually know anything about, persistence--in flouting board rules and/or trying to do end-runs around moderator decisions, such as by creating sock-puppets to avoid queueing--was indeed a critical factor.

Regards,
Pahoran


(bolding emphasis mine)
Guys...Pahoran wasn't a Mod. Now, he may be a Mod now...I don't know...but he wasn't when I was involved with FAIR. I give him the benefit of the doubt when he says that every case he actually knows about deals with those specific issues.

What I would submit to you, Pahoran, is that you don't know the specifics about all of the bannings that have occurred. You have, no doubt, heard half the story on many issues.

I'll go on public record here saying that I think Scratch was wrong in posting your real name on his blog. Scratch, you know I like you, but that really was in bad form...and I'm glad that you took his name off.

Not all of us are the extreme apostates you seem to think we are, Pahoran. You're right. Some of the bannings were probably justified, but others weren't...and there are two sides to every story. I would hope that you would at least be open to that possibility.

by the way....I was the Mod who re-opened your Mountain Meadows Massacre thread a few months ago on FAIR after it was shut down so that you could share the insights you wanted to share. ;)

Sincerely,
Liz...the supposed "traitor FAIR Mod"

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Post by Pahoran »

liz3564 wrote:
In every single case that I actually know anything about, persistence--in flouting board rules and/or trying to do end-runs around moderator decisions, such as by creating sock-puppets to avoid queueing--was indeed a critical factor.

Regards,
Pahoran

(bolding emphasis mine)
Guys...Pahoran wasn't a Mod. Now, he may be a Mod now...I don't know...but he wasn't when I was involved with FAIR. I give him the benefit of the doubt when he says that every case he actually knows about deals with those specific issues.

What I would submit to you, Pahoran, is that you don't know the specifics about all of the bannings that have occurred. You have, no doubt, heard half the story on many issues.

I'll go on public record here saying that I think Scratch was wrong in posting your real name on his blog. Scratch, you know I like you, but that really was in bad form...and I'm glad that you took his name off.

Not all of us are the extreme apostates you seem to think we are, Pahoran. You're right. Some of the bannings were probably justified, but others weren't...and there are two sides to every story. I would hope that you would at least be open to that possibility.

by the way....I was the Mod who re-opened your Mountain Meadows Massacre thread a few months ago on FAIR after it was shut down so that you could share the insights you wanted to share. ;)

Sincerely,
Liz...the supposed "traitor FAIR Mod"

Let's see.

You are marketing yourself here based upon your "insider knowledge," of FAIR, is that it? Ingratiating yourself by sharing little tidbits that you know about because of your former privileged position, and which, if you were in any wise a person of good character, you would be keeping to yourself, is that what's going on?

You're right, I don't know the specifics of all the bannings. Given your ideological shift, I doubt that I can rely upon you to tell a balanced, complete and impartial story, either.

For instance, I have seen no effort on your part to disabuse Rollo of his self-flattering delusion that I went "scampering" to the mods to bail me out when he so Soundly Defeated me with his Brilliant Logic. If indeed you were a mod on FAIR, you will know that to be pure fantasy. Did you not see his claim, or does it not suit you to set him straight?

I have no idea about who you are or where you are coming from vis-à-vis the Church of Jesus Christ; but this place is a sty, Liz. Only swine are going to feel comfortable here for any period of time.

Regards,
Pahoran

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Post by Runtu »

Only swine are going to feel comfortable here for any period of time.


Enjoy a lengthy stay. ;)

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Post by Yoda »

Let's see.

You are marketing yourself here based upon your "insider knowledge," of FAIR, is that it? Ingratiating yourself by sharing little tidbits that you know about because of your former privileged position, and which, if you were in any wise a person of good character, you would be keeping to yourself, is that what's going on?

You're right, I don't know the specifics of all the bannings. Given your ideological shift, I doubt that I can rely upon you to tell a balanced, complete and impartial story, either.

For instance, I have seen no effort on your part to disabuse Rollo of his self-flattering delusion that I went "scampering" to the mods to bail me out when he so Soundly Defeated me with his Brilliant Logic. If indeed you were a mod on FAIR, you will know that to be pure fantasy. Did you not see his claim, or does it not suit you to set him straight?

I have no idea about who you are or where you are coming from vis-à-vis the Church of Jesus Christ; but this place is a sty, Liz. Only swine are going to feel comfortable here for any period of time.

Regards,
Pahoran


I'm not "marketing myself" here or anywhere else. Since I was referred to on the FAIR board as a "traitor Mod", accused of giving out the names of fellow mods (which I never did), and was banned from FAIR before I had a chance to handle things privately in a PM, yes, I did take the opportunity to share my side of the story. It's actually not here, but on Kevin's board. As far as sharing tidbits....ask Scratch...he begged me to tell him who the mods were, and I refused.

I used the example of my being the Mod who opened up your Mountain Meadows Massacre thread because I was hoping that you would at least see that you can't paint everyone with the same brush. If I was some monster apostate, I certainly wouldn't have been moved by your plea to re-open it, and, frankly by your post in that thread.

My "ideological shift" about the gospel hasn't changed. I am a temple recommend holder, and a faithful member of the Church. I do have issues with some of Church policy, and there are doctrinal issues I struggle with, but I've never hidden my views on these points, either here, or at FAIR. What has changed is my "ideological shift" in certain individuals, namely Juliann and Dan G, and my disdain in how things are currently being run at FAIR. I still don't understand why they had to go behind my back, and weren't up front and honest with me about their concerns. So, yes, I'm hurt. Obviously, I'm not as jaded as I should have been dealing with that crowd. And, frankly, I'm not offering to give a balanced, impartial view because I don't know all of the details in all of the bannings, either. I just know what happened to me. And there are two sides to every story.

As far as the incident with Rollo goes, I'm honestly not familiar with what you are talking about. I was only a Mod there for a short period...from August through the first part of October. Since all of the Mod sign-ins and roles have changed now anyway, I'll tell you that my "Mod" name was Hera if that rings any bells for you.

As far as where I am regarding the Church, I already addressed that I am a member of the Church in good standing. As far as Shades's message board is concerned, I will admit that there are some folks here who are a little extreme on the anti- side of the aisle. I feel more comfortable on Mormon Think Tank(Kevin's board), where our posters tend to be more on the "liberal Mormon" side.

I wouldn't term this place as a "sty". I enjoy people here, too.

I'm curious, though....If you find this place such a "sty", why are you here?

Liz

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Post by Pahoran »

liz3564 wrote:
Let's see.

You are marketing yourself here based upon your "insider knowledge," of FAIR, is that it? Ingratiating yourself by sharing little tidbits that you know about because of your former privileged position, and which, if you were in any wise a person of good character, you would be keeping to yourself, is that what's going on?

You're right, I don't know the specifics of all the bannings. Given your ideological shift, I doubt that I can rely upon you to tell a balanced, complete and impartial story, either.

For instance, I have seen no effort on your part to disabuse Rollo of his self-flattering delusion that I went "scampering" to the mods to bail me out when he so Soundly Defeated me with his Brilliant Logic. If indeed you were a mod on FAIR, you will know that to be pure fantasy. Did you not see his claim, or does it not suit you to set him straight?

I have no idea about who you are or where you are coming from vis-à-vis the Church of Jesus Christ; but this place is a sty, Liz. Only swine are going to feel comfortable here for any period of time.

Regards,
Pahoran

I'm not "marketing myself" here or anywhere else. Since I was referred to on the FAIR board as a "traitor Mod", accused of giving out the names of fellow mods (which I never did), and was banned from FAIR before I had a chance to handle things privately in a PM, yes, I did take the opportunity to share my side of the story. It's actually not here, but on Kevin's board. As far as sharing tidbits....ask Scratch...he begged me to tell him who the mods were, and I refused.

I'm glad to hear that, and I'm sorry if I jumped to any conclusions.

However, the execrable Scratch, in among a great pile of filth and invective, claimed that you told him that there was a list of sacrosanct posters, and that my name was on it. If that is true, then I'm at least a little put out to have heard it first from that piece of dreck. Is that what you told him?

I used the example of my being the Mod who opened up your Mountain Meadows Massacre thread because I was hoping that you would at least see that you can't paint everyone with the same brush. If I was some monster apostate, I certainly wouldn't have been moved by your plea to re-open it, and, frankly by your post in that thread.

You liked one of my posts? Thank you, I'm glad to hear it. Which one was it? The one where I was a "complete jerk" or the one where I was an "arrogant trash talker?" (Both per Scratch.)

My "ideological shift" about the gospel hasn't changed. I am a temple recommend holder, and a faithful member of the Church. I do have issues with some of Church policy, and there are doctrinal issues I struggle with, but I've never hidden my views on these points, either here, or at FAIR. What has changed is my "ideological shift" in certain individuals, namely Juliann and Dan G, and my disdain in how things are currently being run at FAIR. I still don't understand why they had to go behind my back, and weren't up front and honest with me about their concerns.

Why don't you email them and ask them?

So, yes, I'm hurt. Obviously, I'm not as jaded as I should have been dealing with that crowd. And, frankly, I'm not offering to give a balanced, impartial view because I don't know all of the details in all of the bannings, either. I just know what happened to me. And there are two sides to every story.

Of course there are. But do you actually know of anyone who was banned because their arguments were going too well?

Why, if the mods are about getting rid of the smarter critics, are Tarski, The Dude, Metcalfe and Vogel still posting?

As far as the incident with Rollo goes, I'm honestly not familiar with what you are talking about. I was only a Mod there for a short period...from August through the first part of October. Since all of the Mod sign-ins and roles have changed now anyway, I'll tell you that my "Mod" name was Hera if that rings any bells for you.

It does. I'm not referring to an "incident" but a practice. Rollo deludes himself that I went "scampering" to the mods for help whenever I couldn't cope with his arguments. I have reported a few posters, but I don't recall reporting Rollo, and I have never reported anyone for anything that didn't look to me like a flagrant violation, such as Temple content or sock-puppetting. Not all of my reports have been upheld, either.

As far as where I am regarding the Church, I already addressed that I am a member of the Church in good standing. As far as Shades's message board is concerned, I will admit that there are some folks here who are a little extreme on the anti- side of the aisle. I feel more comfortable on Mormon Think Tank(Kevin's board), where our posters tend to be more on the "liberal Mormon" side.

I wouldn't term this place as a "sty". I enjoy people here, too.

I'm curious, though....If you find this place such a "sty", why are you here?

Liz

I'm here because one of my fellow-FAIRites was alarmed that peoples' real names were being posted on a site where normal psychology appears to be the exception. The level of paranoia, and the obsession with FAIR, you must admit, could be somewhat unnerving for some. I came over to see what was going on. I am unlikely to stay very long.

Regards,
Pahoran

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Post by Who Knows »

Pahoran - care to share your thoughts on Will "Circle Jerk" Schryver/Provis/Chozah?

Yoda

Post by Yoda »

Why don't you email them and ask them?


I did email Juliann, who became very nasty with me. I didn't have Dan G's email address, and when I attempted to PM him, he banned me mid-PM. I emailed the basic content of my PM to Dan to Juliann, because I had her email address...but she never responded, and I honestly don't know if she ever bothered to forward it onto Dan.

However, the execrable Scratch, in among a great pile of filth and invective, claimed that you told him that there was a list of sacrosanct posters, and that my name was on it. If that is true, then I'm at least a little put out to have heard it first from that piece of dreck. Is that what you told him?


What Scratch was referring to was part of a discussion thread on Kevin's board. Here is the link:

http://www.kevingraham.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47

We have changed some settings on the board, so you will have to register before you can read the whole thread in context, but as a co-site manager on MTT, I will personally activate your account if you are interested in reading the thread and/or participating.

Here is my quote from that thread so you have some reference. I don't think I really said anything that was offensive or out of line. If I did, I apologize:

liz3564 wrote:As to the initial question of the thread, "Is DCP given preferential treatment on FAIR?" the answer is yes.

However, I can honestly say that in my short time as a Mod at FAIR, I didn't really notice him getting any more preferential treatment than several other posters over there.

Shortly before I was "dismissed", we (the Mods) had actually made a list of posters who, from time to time, tended to "lose their cool", but at the same time were considered substantial contributors to the board. Therefore, people on this list could be "overlooked" if they were inadvertantly rude to another poster, etc.

The list was actually fairly lengthy. DCP was obviously on it, but he was definitely not alone. This list was created shortly after I was taken to task for attempting to monitor Pahoran and Nighthawke on a thread where they were both being nasty.

Here are some of the people on the "list" who I can remember off the top of my head:

DCP
Pahoran
Nighthawke
Juliann
Allen Wyatt
PacMan
(basically all of the Pundits)
The Dude (congrats, bud! Even though you're a critic, they love ya! :wink: )
BCSpace

People I added to the list (hopefully, they were taken seriously)
dude
Katherine the Great(this one I actually think they did listen to because I noticed they made her a Pundit. That's one good way I influenced things while being a Mod. :wink:)
alanasaunt


And yes, I have been frustrated with the way you treat other posters at times. I don't think I ever made that a secret, either.

You liked one of my posts? Thank you, I'm glad to hear it. Which one was it? The one where I was a "complete jerk" or the one where I was an "arrogant trash talker?" (Both per Scratch.)


The post which moved me was the post on the Mountain Meadows Massacre thread where you went into detail about how heartsick Brigham Young was about the entire incident. I can't remember all of the details of the post but I remember feeling the spirit very strongly while reading that post, and I felt like you were moved by the spirit to write what you wrote. I felt that in the PM you wrote to "Hera" asking to have the thread re-opened, too. I'm sorry I don't have more specifics about the post. It was a thread that happened several months ago.

Of course there are. But do you actually know of anyone who was banned because their arguments were going too well?


I know of cases where people were banned and not given any explanation why...and being a moderator myself...I can tell you that those who speak contrary to the Church are kept on a much "shorter leash".

My view as a Moderator...and this view was a minority view which was criticized....was that I felt that posters who were pro-LDS should avoid getting snarky on a personal level with other posters. Debate the issues, and let your research stand on it's own merits. What always frustrated me about you was that you had such awesome research, and then you would lash out at someone personally when you really didn't need to do that! I felt like doing that discounted all of the wonderful debating techniques you had put into use in your favor! When I mentioned to the other Mods that I wanted to address this with you, Nighthawke, and a few others, I was shut down. And, since majority ruled, I respected that, even though I disagreed. Actually, I never thought I would have the opportunity to tell you that, so I'm glad you posted here. :)

I don't hold any malice against you, Pahoran. I never have. I suppose what has frustrated me with this whole experience is that I try to be up front with everyone, and I, unfortunately, expect the same in return, and am hurt when it doesn't happen.

I think you're an asset to FAIR. They're lucky to have you. I think your positions would be even stronger if you took my advice. ;)

Have a good night.

Liz

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Post by harmony »

I'm glad to hear that, and I'm sorry if I jumped to any conclusions.


There is no "if", Pahoran. You jumped to some pretty drastic conclusions and made some pretty strong statements, based on some pretty slim information... and you were wrong. And now you don't even have the grace to apologize appropriately.

However, the execrable Scratch, in among a great pile of filth and invective, claimed that you told him that there was a list of sacrosanct posters, and that my name was on it. If that is true, then I'm at least a little put out to have heard it first from that piece of dreck. Is that what you told him?


Perhaps you have Scratch confused with one of our more colorful posters, like Polygamy Porter or Nort.

Why don't you email them and ask them?


Once bitten, twice shy. What makes you think she didn't? What makes you think they responded?

Why, if the mods are about getting rid of the smarter critics, are Tarski, The Dude, Metcalfe and Vogel still posting?


I'm not sure they all are still posting.

I'm here because one of my fellow-FAIRites was alarmed that peoples' real names were being posted on a site where normal psychology appears to be the exception. The level of paranoia, and the obsession with FAIR, you must admit, could be somewhat unnerving for some. I came over to see what was going on.


Oh balderdash. If this isn't the most entertaining piece of nonsense I've seen all day, I'll eat my hat.

I am unlikely to stay very long.


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Post by asbestosman »

harmony wrote:
Why, if the mods are about getting rid of the smarter critics, are Tarski, The Dude, Metcalfe and Vogel still posting?


I'm not sure they all are still posting.

I know that Tarski and The Dude are still posting. I often read and respond to their posts. We occasionally PM each other too.
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Post by harmony »

asbestosman wrote:
harmony wrote:
Why, if the mods are about getting rid of the smarter critics, are Tarski, The Dude, Metcalfe and Vogel still posting?


I'm not sure they all are still posting.

I know that Tarski and The Dude are still posting. I often read and respond to their posts. We occasionally PM each other too.


I was mostly referring to Brent and Dan. There seemed to be a falling out between them and FAIR, but I could be wrong.

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Post by Mister Scratch »

liz3564 wrote:My view as a Moderator...and this view was a minority view which was criticized....was that I felt that posters who were pro-LDS should avoid getting snarky on a personal level with other posters. Debate the issues, and let your research stand on it's own merits. What always frustrated me about you was that you had such awesome research, and then you would lash out at someone personally when you really didn't need to do that! I felt like doing that discounted all of the wonderful debating techniques you had put into use in your favor! When I mentioned to the other Mods that I wanted to address this with you, Nighthawke, and a few others, I was shut down. And, since majority ruled, I respected that, even though I disagreed.


What this demonstrates is that I am absolutely right about Pahoran in my characterization of him on the blog: he is kept around on FAIR primarily so that he can function as an "attack dog."

I think you're an asset to FAIR. They're lucky to have you. I think your positions would be even stronger if you took my advice. ;)


I dunno, Liz... I kinda like having him around here. ; )

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Post by Pahoran »

Mister Scratch wrote:What this demonstrates is that I am absolutely right about Pahoran in my characterization of him on the blog: he is kept around on FAIR primarily so that he can function as an "attack dog."

And you are here to function as what? A rabid hyena?

Regards,
Pahoran

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Post by Mister Scratch »

Pahoran wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:What this demonstrates is that I am absolutely right about Pahoran in my characterization of him on the blog: he is kept around on FAIR primarily so that he can function as an "attack dog."

And you are here to function as what? A rabid hyena?

Regards,
Pahoran


No, my dear Pah! As I have said many times, I'm here to have fun!

Fourth time, kiddo: Are you the author of "The Anti-Mormon Attackers"?
Your silence is leading me to believe that you are.... If I don't hear anything back from you by the end of the day, that will answer the question for me, and I will take it as a tacit admission on your part that you are indeed _____.

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Post by Pahoran »

Mister Scratch wrote:
Pahoran wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:What this demonstrates is that I am absolutely right about Pahoran in my characterization of him on the blog: he is kept around on FAIR primarily so that he can function as an "attack dog."

And you are here to function as what? A rabid hyena?

Regards,
Pahoran


No, my dear Pah! As I have said many times, I'm here to have fun!

Fourth time, kiddo: Are you the author of "The Anti-Mormon Attackers"?
Your silence is leading me to believe that you are.... If I don't hear anything back from you by the end of the day, that will answer the question for me, and I will take it as a tacit admission on your part that you are indeed _____.

You may conclude anything you like. Read my lips: I will not discuss my IRL identity with you.

Regards,
Pahoran

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