Death of Tom Kimball

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Kishkumen
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

Post by Kishkumen »

Well, Stem, you are a good soul. I appreciate you visiting both boards to weigh in. Here's the thing: we can expect that LDS apologists of the Mopologetic variety will make the reactions of Post-Mormons and Ex-Mormons the focus of their own criticism when the key point here is that predators are using their church relationships to prey on kids. I would love to see people addressing that problem, not the "ex-Mormons are so mean to the LDS Church" problem. The latter really isn't the salient issue right now, is it? Is that what we want to do? Talk about how nasty ex- or post-Mormons are?

Evidently some Mopologists think so. From where I sit the fact that Tom Kimball lived as a predatory pedophile in the LDS Church with absolute impunity for roughly thirty years or more points to a big problem. But, yes, let's talk about the failure of the Post-Mormon community, the one that lacks children's programs and does not perform private chastity interviews with young people, to handle this Tom business appropriately. That makes a lot of sense. Talk about master-level diversionary tactics.

One thing that most all of us have in common is that we are or were members of the LDS Church, some of us for the many decades of our lives. But, sure, let's talk about how Post-Mormons are uniquely culpable, bad, or dealing with this in the wrong way as though we can separate the two groups out neatly. That works.

A good number of John Dehlin's fiercest critics are to be found where? Oh yes. The Post-Mormon community. The same one that is failing at all of these things and being so unfair to the LDS Church. It is Post-Mormons who have really stuck to the accusations against John Dehlin and pursued them. Not the LDS Church. It is many members of the Post-Mormon community that view Tom's decades of perpetration not only as an LDS Church problem but also as a failure of the Mormon Studies community.

Wait? What was that? Members of the Mormon Studies community recognize their own failures in this and we can't generalize about how all Post-Mormons just blame the LDS Church?

WOW! Mind blowing. It is almost as though that MD&D post either did not have a point, or its point was so poorly expressed and executed that it quickly descended into complete incoherence.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Stem wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:31 pm
I've participated on that MD&D thread and find it somewhat interesting. I do think it necessary for a critical perspective to be more thoughtful and observant than to declare something like "the Church its teaching and culture creates pedophiles" although I agree I doubt anyone with sense would say something like that seriously. I still think we need room to declare ideas but also learn to be honest about criticisms.
...

Sounds to me Anne McMullin has a pretty personal grudge for Lindsay Hansen Park. What a mess that is.
Fortunately I don't think anyone advanced the claim there that the church "creates pedophiles." I know I did not.

As for McMullin, I hope she can refine her approach. I think that she and Matt Long have an excellent premise in their podcast What We Know. Identifying predators and learning how to enable them less is something we need to learn.
https://whatweknowpod.com/

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Hey Kish. You make good points, all very valid. I particularly like how you pointed out Tom's indiscretions were going on long before he left the Church. Its not easy to follow one's life and assign the causes.

I happen to maintain many relationships with members. I try to give them their due as much as possible. if not, I am nothing but boorish to them, it seems like. While I'd agree there is more important matters to get to when it comes to these problems of abuse, I don't have a problem accepting their are other auxiliary issues we can talk about too. If I personally intend to be open and honest in conversation and relationship I should be very quick to accept and even point out the weaknesses of my position and this kind of goes along with that since we tend to force each other or see each other into camps. In truth I don't know how valid Juliann's point is if we're specifying the women who she seems most focused on. I don't know their take nor have I followed them. But its fair and I accept there are over-reactions, there are tenuous accusations and conclusions.

Participating over there helps me get more of a feel for what members around me are thinking too. Over at MD&D they tend to say things that members don't say in person. So it helps.

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

Post by Stem »

Meadowchik wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:14 pm
Stem wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:31 pm
I've participated on that MD&D thread and find it somewhat interesting. I do think it necessary for a critical perspective to be more thoughtful and observant than to declare something like "the Church its teaching and culture creates pedophiles" although I agree I doubt anyone with sense would say something like that seriously. I still think we need room to declare ideas but also learn to be honest about criticisms.
...

Sounds to me Anne McMullin has a pretty personal grudge for Lindsay Hansen Park. What a mess that is.
Fortunately I don't think anyone advanced the claim there that the church "creates pedophiles." I know I did not.

As for McMullin, I hope she can refine her approach. I think that she and Matt Long have an excellent premise in their podcast What We Know. Identifying predators and learning how to enable them less is something we need to learn.
https://whatweknowpod.com/
I don't think so either. I don't know specifically who Juliann has in mind. She's just vaguely grouped people and I imagine someone or other presents some problematic ideas and criticisms.

I didn't know anything about McMullin but I wasn't fond of the two pieces I read from here, even though she did make some really good points. I might check out the podcast at some point.

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Kishkumen
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Meadowchik wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:14 pm
Fortunately I don't think anyone advanced the claim there that the church "creates pedophiles." I know I did not.
There are always going to be the few that unreasonably place the whole blame on the LDS Church for this or that evil. That really doesn't work. Moreover, it doesn't persuade anyone to make changes. A better approach is to say that there is a problem and then ask what practical steps might be taken to reduce the risk and the harm. Unfortunately, this will not prevent certain apologists from focusing on the cranks who want to place all the blame on the Church. It is more convenient for them, and, well, they would much rather demonize Ex-Mos than do the hard work of protecting LDS children from harm.
Meadowchik wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:14 pm
As for McMullin, I hope she can refine her approach. I think that she and Matt Long have an excellent premise in their podcast What We Know. Identifying predators and learning how to enable them less is something we need to learn.[https://whatweknowpod.com/
Honestly, I think some of this is resentment for not having Lindsay's audience. Rosebud continues to have these axes to grind. I am not eager to continue to give Rosebud more of my attention. Her way of dealing with her negative experience with John suggests to me that she is carrying too much baggage to be the ideal advocate for victims. Her intensity is practically bonkers level.

I mean, look, she can't stop attacking Dehlin even in this project. Dear me.

I do find it humorous that juliann and Calm are running to Rosebud's defense though. LOL.
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Stem wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:56 pm
Hey Kish. You make good points, all very valid. I particularly like how you pointed out Tom's indiscretions were going on long before he left the Church. Its not easy to follow one's life and assign the causes.

I happen to maintain many relationships with members. I try to give them their due as much as possible. if not, I am nothing but boorish to them, it seems like. While I'd agree there is more important matters to get to when it comes to these problems of abuse, I don't have a problem accepting their are other auxiliary issues we can talk about too. If I personally intend to be open and honest in conversation and relationship I should be very quick to accept and even point out the weaknesses of my position and this kind of goes along with that since we tend to force each other or see each other into camps. In truth I don't know how valid Juliann's point is if we're specifying the women who she seems most focused on. I don't know their take nor have I followed them. But its fair and I accept there are over-reactions, there are tenuous accusations and conclusions.

Participating over there helps me get more of a feel for what members around me are thinking too. Over at MD&D they tend to say things that members don't say in person. So it helps.
That’s cool, Stem. I respect what you are doing. Mopologists are looking for enemies and focusing on the most unreasonable people. That’s what I expect. On the other hand, the different ways the dynamics are working in the MD&D conversation because the issue is gender and a number of the apologists are both male and politically conservative is interesting.

There are plenty of places I can go to hear what members think. And there are plenty of members who are a lot cooler and more chill than the apologetic crowd in attack mode. Honestly the bug they have up their butts is really funny. juliann is one of the most unpleasant people I have ever observed online. I hope she comes across a lot better in person.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:54 pm
I do find it humorous that Juliann and Calm are running to Rosebud's defense though. LOL.
Sort of like "If Caligula beats up on Bambi then he is a friend of mine".
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:54 pm

Honestly, I think some of this is resentment for not having Lindsay's audience. Rosebud continues to have these axes to grind. I am not eager to continue to give Rosebud more of my attention. Her way of dealing with her negative experience with John suggests to me that she is carrying too much baggage to be the ideal advocate for victims. Her intensity is practically bonkers level.

I mean, look, she can't stop attacking Dehlin even in this project. Dear me.

I do find it humorous that juliann and Calm are running to Rosebud's defense though. LOL.
Well, I wholeheartedly wish her well.

I think there is some seriously good potential in her stated objectives.

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Meadowchik wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:56 am
Well, I wholeheartedly wish her well.

I think there is some seriously good potential in her stated objectives.
I wouldn’t expect any less, and I wish her the best too. She is obviously a very capable person. That said, the saying, “physician, heal thyself,” comes to mind.

All of my experience with her has been watching her swoop into an ongoing discussion to start criticizing and attacking some person she has a beef with, and that is when she isn’t initiating the discussion as an attack.

Her last thread here announced her project AND attacked John. Then it became mostly an attack on John.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/viewt ... 3#p1224723
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Oh wait...so, Rosebud=Anne McMullin? Didn't see that coming.

Sounds like she's accusing Lindsay, then, for being party to her being mistreated by Dehlin...And now it makes sense why he was thrown into this.

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Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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Obituary
Thomas Smith Kimball (53) passed away on October 13, 2020 in Logan, Utah. Tom was born on March 24, 1967 in Salt Lake City, Utah, the son of Elden Clifford Kimball and Esther Anderson. He married Page Ogden on September 23, 1989. Many years later, they divorced. On April 28, 2018, he married Kelly Christine McAfee. Survivors include: his wife Kelly, his former spouse Page, his children James (Tayler) Kimball, Jessie (Gage Jensen) Kimball, Shad Kimball, Rhyan Kimball, Rachael Kimball, a grandson Tommy, and his siblings Lynda Richards, Dan Kimball, John Kimball, and Stacey Larsen. He is preceded in death by his parents and 3 siblings, Glenn Kimball, Jimmy Kimball, and Mary Kimball.
"As we lay Tom's body to rest, we recognize the pain he caused many lives on. We mourn for and stand by each victim."
Private services will be held by his family. The memorial service will be livestreamed via Zoom for those not in attendance.

Click on the following link to join in on the funeral service via Zoom. Please make note of the following prior to joining to ensure a smooth transition into the Zoom meeting: wait to join until 30 minutes prior to the service start time, download the Zoom application onto your device and make an account (this is free), and join with your device's audio and not phone audio unless you plan to call into the meeting.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81436843472?p ... NEb0MzUT09

Meeting ID: 814 3684 3472
Passcode: 057479
https://www.andersonmortuary.com/obitua ... cm3TCwuzZg

His family again released a public statement:
Dear friends and family, My dad's funeral will be tomorrow October 20th at 2pm. This will not be in person due to corona virus. It will be live streamed via zoom and recorded to watch either live or on you own time. We would like to warn everyone that this will not be a conventional funeral. We will be talking about subjects that can be triggering for mental health such as suicide and various forms of abuse. This is not a funeral that will talk only about the good, it will also talk about the negative. It will be my dad; The good, the bad, the ugly. We hope that sharing our truth will help bring some much needed closure.
https://www.Facebook.com/jessica.kimbal ... 4021960683

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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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Stem wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:58 am
Oh wait...so, Rosebud=Anne McMullin? Didn't see that coming.

Sounds like she's accusing Lindsay, then, for being party to her being mistreated by Dehlin...And now it makes sense why he was thrown into this.
To be fair to Rosebud, I am sure she is both genuine in her interest to the plight of victims and well trained to do something for them. That said, I think she would benefit from not allowing these personal beefs get in the way of her work. I see the bind. Her work does interface with what she sees as the shoddy and irresponsible work of these people. The trouble is this: we all know of her personal beefs. So she undercuts her own cause every time she includes one of these people in her tirades regarding proper victim advocacy.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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Meadowchik wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:16 am
His family again released a public statement:
Dear friends and family, My dad's funeral will be tomorrow October 20th at 2pm. This will not be in person due to corona virus. It will be live streamed via zoom and recorded to watch either live or on you own time. We would like to warn everyone that this will not be a conventional funeral. We will be talking about subjects that can be triggering for mental health such as suicide and various forms of abuse. This is not a funeral that will talk only about the good, it will also talk about the negative. It will be my dad; The good, the bad, the ugly. We hope that sharing our truth will help bring some much needed closure.
https://www.Facebook.com/jessica.kimbal ... 4021960683
I wish them all the best. My heart aches for the victims and the family. Frankly, though, Tom gets very little sympathy from me. Approaching no sympathy, in fact. I am sorry if that hurts someone else who is mourning Tom, but this kind of serial abuse for decades is so horrendous that it would be an insult to the victims even to be polite about this monster and the horrors he wrought.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:07 am
...
I wish them all the best. My heart aches for the victims and the family. Frankly, though, Tom gets very little sympathy from me. Approaching no sympathy, in fact. I am sorry if that hurts someone else who is mourning Tom, but this kind of serial abuse for decades is so horrendous that it would be an insult to the victims even to be polite about this monster and the horrors he wrought.
Some of the people who knew Tom - or thought that they did - are still trying to come to terms with the Jekyll and Hyde that they associated with.

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.
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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:01 pm

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.
That is so difficult. I think that part of this is an sort of an existential dilemma that humans have not roundly solved, namely, that evildoing is not easy to spot. And there is no perfect rule to predict it. That is scary as hell. And we rely on trust to function in human community and civilization. So it requires energy to watch out for it. It is difficult to manage uncertainty and to not have the comfort of certainty. I think that if we learn how to be better at managing uncertainty and coping in life without certainty, we will be better at dealing with the cognitive dissonance like this, less likely to seek easy answers as the easy way through, and therefore better at opposing evil.

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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:01 pm
Some of the people who knew Tom - or thought that they did - are still trying to come to terms with the Jekyll and Hyde that they associated with.

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.
I am not intending to attack anyone for going through that process. I am talking about my process.
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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:32 pm
malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:01 pm
Some of the people who knew Tom - or thought that they did - are still trying to come to terms with the Jekyll and Hyde that they associated with.

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.
I am not intending to attack anyone for going through that process. I am talking about my process.
Thanks, Kish - I didn't take it as an attack.
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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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Meadowchik wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:23 pm
malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:01 pm

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.
That is so difficult. I think that part of this is an sort of an existential dilemma that humans have not roundly solved, namely, that evildoing is not easy to spot. And there is no perfect rule to predict it. That is scary as hell. And we rely on trust to function in human community and civilization. So it requires energy to watch out for it. It is difficult to manage uncertainty and to not have the comfort of certainty. I think that if we learn how to be better at managing uncertainty and coping in life without certainty, we will be better at dealing with the cognitive dissonance like this, less likely to seek easy answers as the easy way through, and therefore better at opposing evil.
I agree.

It's not only that evildoing is not easy to spot, but that it may be difficult to associate evildoing with someone you have known as an admirable person, even when presented with ample proof.
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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:40 pm

It's not only that evildoing is not easy to spot, but that it may be difficult to associate evildoing with someone you have known as an admirable person, even when presented with ample proof.
Definitely. As my parents like to say, people are not a bag of one kind of nuts. They're mixed. Even if someone appears like a good person, they are capable of extreme evil. It's hard to face that reality.
Last edited by Meadowchik on Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tom Kimball Online Funeral and Obituary

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malkie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:38 pm
Thanks, Kish - I didn't take it as an attack.
There is no question that this is a painful time for a lot of people, and I am sorry for that pain.
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Re: Death of Tom Kimball

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There is no way for us to start at the point of Tom's own beginning and find those decisions, those abuses that made him. We can't because we don't know his starting point. He never understood his own starting point. He had no say in his mind's capacity nor the environment in which he found himself. Its sad to imagine that what came of him was an unavoidable thing, set as a consequence of all that influenced him. Its sucks to think if anyone of us were found, by happenstance, born as him, with every physical attribute he had, including his own mind, his own place and time, each one of us would have ended up just as he did. we call him abuser and coward because it's so much easier to swallow. But it's hard to accept he was victim of everything that made him.

"But I never would have let my imagination go there, or would never have reached out to hurt another..." Yeah, I know. That's the point. You wouldn't have. But you have no idea what he was composed of. How can we possibly escape the conclusion that we have no choice, nor real free choice? So, so easy to demean each other as we disappear, one by one, pretending their mind's, their circumstance, their inevitable life was their fault. Nah...God's a fool for creating the beasts among us, set strategically to hurt us, then in some act of presumed "heroism" eternally demeans the beast, saving us from the drooling fangs he forced upon us. But it was for our own good and somehow it was for the beasts' good too.

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