"Bitter Fruit"

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Polygamy, bigamy, intimidating young girls, and wooing 14 years olds are but some of the bitter fruits that grew out of the immorality sanctioned by Smith and his Mormonism
Joseph Smith was immoral. He was an adulterer. He was a liar. He was a cheater.

Poor Emma.

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Gadianton
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Gadianton »

Dr. M: "Right, when the very statement is crafted to engender fear on the part of believers... also where exactly is the data that supports his proposition?"

These are the kinds of insights that keep this place going. Not the kind of thing anyone at Sic et Non could possibly comprehend. "Does not compute". lol.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

I have a question
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by I have a question »

The transcript is up.
A society, for example, in which individual consent is the only constraint on sexual activity is a society in decay. Adultery, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock births,15 and elective abortions are but some of the bitter fruits that grow out of the ongoing sexual revolution.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

You will notice an added footnote has been referenced following the phrase "out-of-wedlock births". The footnote reads:
In giving this example, I am speaking of potential adverse consequences to children as “bitter fruit” and not of the children themselves. Every child of God is precious, and every life has priceless value regardless of the circumstances of birth.
That he felt the need to add a footnote to clarify suggests, once again, that scrutiny and dissenting voices on boards such as this one, are heard and have influence within the PR sensitive echelons of the Church. Unfortunately his footnote explanation doesn't match the structure of his sentence - which clearly is labelling out-of-wedlock births as bitter fruit growing out of the sexual revolution.

Interestingly, Peterson "heard" Christofferson say it this way:
“Adultery, promiscuity, elective abortion, and out-of-wedlock births are but some of the bitter fruits that grow out of the immorality sanctioned by the sexual revolution,” said Elder Christofferson.
Having listened to the talk whilst following the transcript, Peterson is correct, this^ is what Christofferson said. The transcript does not match what was actually said. The transcript has been amended to remove "immorality sanctioned" and add "ongoing" in front of sexual revolution. Perhaps my pointing out that the sexual revolution was 50 years ago has made Christofferson realise he was sounding very outdated...

Why can't they be honest and highlight where edits in the transcript have been made and add notes to explain why?

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

The children *ARE* the fruit. Compare the terminology from opposite perspectives and it's crystal clear that the children are the fruit, not just the so-called "potential adverse consequences" in an embarrassed attempt to walk it back.
Bitter wrote:A society, for example, in which individual consent is the only constraint on sexual activity is a society in decay. Adultery, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock births, and elective abortions are but some of the bitter fruits that grow out of the ongoing sexual revolution.
Sweet wrote:A religion, for example, in which teaches mutual consent in marital sexual activity is righteous. Fidelity, chastity, in-wedlock births, and having children are but some of the sweet fruits that grow out of the ongoing moral sexual choices.
The fruits are clearly listed, on one hand they are bitter, while in the other hand they are sweet. The statement says "some of the bitter fruits" meaning that there are multiple bitter fruits involved in the example and children are clearly listed as 'one' of them.

1. Bitter adultery vs. Sweet fidelity
2. Bitter promiscuity vs. Sweet chastity
3. Bitter out-of-wedlock births vs. Sweet in-wedlock births
4. Bitter elective abortions vs. Sweet children

So, we have bitter on one hand and sweet on the other. The children *ARE* the fruit!

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Liar wrote:I am speaking of potential adverse consequences to children as “bitter fruit” and not of the children themselves
Go ahead and equate consequences as "bitter fruit", but the children are most definitely listed as one of them. A tree bears apples. That's the fruit. The apple is not part of the tree per se but is an extension just like a baby is an extension of the parent. The fruit falls from the tree and makes other trees just as the baby grows and leaves its parent to make other babies.

The fruit *IS*the baby, period. Christofferson is ashamed of what he said. He's trying to walk it back and justify his seared conscience. Bottom line, Mormons have always devalued babies born out of immorality because it's their religious mindset in being better and more holier than everyone else. Take Cain's poor black babies. Those were surely a basket full of dark and bitter fruits -- cursed from the priesthood, defiled, not worthy of God's choice blessings -- and servants to the White & Delightsome race.

Mormons are hypocrites and liars. You too, DCP. You're a liar. You don't know the king's name in Facsimile No. 3 and are left to wonder why Joseph Smith hacked out Anubis's snout in a coverup.

:twisted:

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Let's not forget that Christofferson has scriptural precedent in naming children as "bitter fruit" because the bible is the worst culprit, guilty of depravity and shame. Words from the bible are some of the worst things ever mentioned and all this to the guilt and shame of Jehovah god.
Deut 28:4 wrote:Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
As opposed to:
Deut 28:18 wrote:Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Cursed babies. Cursed children! Oh, don't even get me started on what murderous Jehovah does to little children in the Old Testament!

:mad:
Jehovah wrote:Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Tom »

I have a question wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:41 am
Peterson reports the words used as follows...
“Adultery, promiscuity, elective abortion, and out-of-wedlock births are but some of the bitter fruits that grow out of the immorality sanctioned by the sexual revolution,” said Elder Christofferson.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... ruits.html

If that is an accurate transcript of what Christofferson said then he is indeed calling the birth of a child to a single parent (or parents who have not entered into a civil ceremony to formalise their relationship) a "bitter fruit". The "fruit" of such a situation is the child, and Christofferson (likely unwittingly) has just been very derogatory to children born in those scenarios.

You will note that Christofferson uses the term "the sexual revolution" to provide his audience with an enemy. Unfortunately for him, use of that phrase shows his thinking and points of reference are seriously outdated.
The sexual revolution, also known as a time of sexual liberation, was a social movement that challenged traditional codes of behavior related to sexuality and interpersonal relationships throughout the United States and subsequently, the wider world, from the 1960s to the 1980s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_revolution

That Apostles of the Church are 50 years behind the times should surprise nobody.
Sigh. It is more than a little tiresome, at times, to have to respond to howling critics, screeching hate propagandists, and caterwauling apostates. I have often empathized with Nehemiah, when Sanballat and Tobiah and Geshem the Arab, hoping to delay or even to stop the building of Jerusalem's city wall, summoned him to a meeting for negotiations. "I am doing a great work," said Nehemiah, "and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it to come down to you?” (Neh. 6:3). Alas, as Three 6 Nehemiah sang long ago, you know it's hard out here for a Mopologist (Neh. 6:20).

Elder Christofferson may have made a tiny clarification, but both the delivered and written versions of his excellent address are perfectly consistent with my 2,000-word blog post explaining what Elder Christofferson had in mind, clearly meant, and intended to say. Just so you know.
Last edited by Tom on Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:09 am
caterwauling apostates
I had to look that one up. Okay, I'll gladly assume that one. Anything to defend the rights and freedoms of us wicked people who are going to be slain the day Jesus comes back and cast us into hell for at least a thousand years while the self-righteous Mormons inherit the earth -- wherein gay marriage will not be legal, porn abolished, and blasphemy against religion not tolerated.

I'll yell like a ____ cat to defend my rights and call out the sick nature of religion, moreover, Mormonism. If Mormons had their way, so many basic rights we wicked people enjoy today would be abolished and illegal. I have references to prove that, if need be, but you already know them. So we're good.
Last edited by Shulem on Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Todd Christofferson worships a god who slays the bitter fruit of nonbelievers as recorded in sickening verses of the unholy bible:
1 Samuel 15:3 wrote:Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
infant and suckling = bitter fruit
Exodus 12:29 wrote:And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that [was] in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
firstborn = bitter fruit
Isaiah 13:16 wrote:Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
children = bitter fruit
Hosea 13:16 wrote:Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
infants = bitter fruit
Numbers 31:17 wrote:Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Kill all the bitter fruits!

My middle finger goes up to Jehovah! ____ you, Jehovah!

And, ____ the Mormon Church and their Goddamn apostles!

:mad:

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Louis Midgley wrote:and genuine prophets often cause rage and confusion among those who are, as our scriptures have it, "carnal, sensual and devilish
Like the rage and confusion that occurred after innocent Egyptian women woke up and found their firstborn sons dead at the hand of Jehovah's murderous angel.

____ you, Midgley.
Kiwi57 wrote:We see this prophecy fulfilled in this thread.
And the prophecy of Jesus coming back and ruling over the Mormon Church is NEVER going to happen. It's been 200 years since Elohim appeared in the grove of trees and pissed on a 14 year old boy -- so far nothing else has happened. 200 years! The last days are counting down you fool! How about another 200 years? And 200 after that? And so on.

Screw Jesus and the horse he rode in on.

:twisted:

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Dr Exiled
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Dr Exiled »

The sic et non crowd are a bunch of clowns.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:17 pm
The sic et non crowd are a bunch of clowns.
Had they lived in the days of Noah they would not have tossed a life preserver to anyone, especially a black man. Let him drown! Had they lived in the days of Moses they would have rejoiced that all the firstborn sons of Egypt were dead and counted it a blessing on their heads. Mormons today continue to honor the Old Testament and the murderous god Jehovah by refusing to recant or dismiss evil stories found in that unholy writ.

Basically, it boils down to the House of Israel (covenant people) and the Gentiles (bitter fruit).

That's it in a nutshell, folks. If you don't agree with me, fine, ____ you.

We be bitter fruit! Bitter!

:mrgreen:

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Christofferson explained the new Church policy on same-sex marriage and children.

Are children of gay people sweet fruits or bitter fruits? They must be bitter because they are not worthy of baptism and the sins of the parents be upon the heads of the children, the bitter fruits. President Monson so ordered it by revelation as confirmed by evil NelSatan, himself.

Image

We will baptize the kids of murderers and rapists and even child molesters. But gays? No need to apply. Those be bitter fruits.

STUPID Mormons!

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msnobody
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by msnobody »

Sounds like it is taken a little out of context to me. If not, I am one of those bitter fruits.
"The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. He fulfills the desire of those who fear him; he also hears their cry and saves them.” Psalm 145:18-19 ESV

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moksha
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by moksha »

"Hate the child's conception, but deny that you hate the child."
-- Playbook of Hater's Apologetics, Patheos Press, 2020
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

2 Nephi 2015 wrote:
Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men (except for children of gays) are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

He denieth none (except for children of gays) that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
children of gays = bitter fruit

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

It's a good thing the parents aren't gay, if so, the kids couldn't be baptized without my signature.

Image

Grandpa Gay Basher!

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Image

Unless of course, the parents are gay, the fruit from their womb is a curse.

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Dr Moore
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Dr Moore »

What exactly is it that makes being born to an out-of-wedlock couple a "bitter fruit?"

We know divorce rate is something like 50%, no better in the church.

Would D. Todd agree that half of all married-couple births also destined to become bitter fruits, too?

And I wonder what the data says about out-of-wedlock couples who give birth to a baby before marriage. How many of those couples stay together?

And also... which is more bitter, to be in the 50% of kids raised by married couples who divorce, or be in the group where the parental home situation starts separated and stays that way?

Speaking from experience, having my home split up through divorce as a child was pretty damn "bitter."

I maintain that the "bitter fruit" comment is nothing but a fear tactic, unsupported by data.

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fetchface
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by fetchface »

What's interesting to me is there seems to be this theme in the church that a righteous life will also be extremely difficult. I mean, look how the LDS latch on to the old quote that they somehow (mis)attribute to Jesus, "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it." It was an extremely common thread in all of the lessons and talks I heard growing up.

The "bitter fruit" is simply maybe having to work harder. I say maybe because some LDS dads really don't do all that much anyway. I always had the impression that the road to Godliness in Mormon theology was to work one's ass off, so these little out-of-wedlock bitter fruits are simply on the fast track if you really think about it in the context of Mormon belief.
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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Christofferson ends his talk by quoting Nephi, how ironic:
Nephi wrote:Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.
Except for children of gays who in 2015 were commanded by President Monson not to partake of salvation in the Mormon Church.

How ironic. How pathetic. Oh the bitter hypocrisy and coverup of Mormonism.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

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