"Bitter Fruit"

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Dr Moore
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Dr Moore »

Makes you wonder -- how many gay Nephites and Lamanites must there have been?

I recall estimates of ~1 million people during the "golden era" of 4 Nephi. It may have been more than 1 million, if all the marriages and multiplying began in the low teen years, which is likely tautological if we could query Joseph on the matter.

Now, using the approximation of 2% of the population suggested here, we might safely estimate a peak population of about 20,000 "LGB" Nephites during the peak of their civilization.

20,000!?!?! Where are their voices? Same place as the women, I suppose.

Actually, I'm confident Joseph never even considered the possibility of gay Nephites.

But if not explicitly, does the Book of Mormon say anything implicitly on the matter of homosexual Nephites?

It is rather interesting to re-read the text of 4 Nephi.
4 Nephi wrote: 10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people.

11 And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them.

16 And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.
(bold mine)

The text does appear to actually obviate the possibility of homosexuals in a utopian Christian society. As in, they don't exist.

Indeed it seems almost certain from these verses, assuming absence of evidence is evidence of absence, that homosexuals in the Nephite population must have been (a) married heterosexually, (b) had lots of children (= lots of hetero sex), (c) lost all homosexual desires and lusts, and (d) could not have been more happy about it.

It's surprising that neither Oaks nor Bednar have incorporated this rather obvious reading of 4 Nephi into one of their love-bigot speeches about The Family Proclamation. It makes their case so neatly, using the Book of Mormon. In fact, a literal reading of 4 Nephi could arguably justify church leaders adopting a more fundamentalist view of homosexuality as a temporary "ill" that vanishes in celestial company.

EDIT: hope none of this comes off as insensitive to those in pain. I'm incredibly bothered by the still-harmful messaging toward LGBTQ+ in the church.

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

I can imagine apologists today making the assertion that the so-called gay gene was absent from Lehi's superior family line and that their righteousness in following the Lord cleansed their DNA from contamination and sex perversion such as same sex attraction.

But yes, it's odd that the Book of Mormon makes no mention of Sodom-like activities amongst the people -- not even among the darker skinned Lamanites who were altogether sold under sin. How can a whole civilization of a thousand years pay no reference to homosexuality? That's just too much of a glaring hole in the script in which to justify its claims of a historical record of a civilization that went through all the motions and changes as any civilization would. The point is, Smith just didn't think about it. He forgot all about Sodom when writing his book. Smith loved women and lots of them. His mind was always on women. He couldn't keep his eyes off women. So that pretty much sums it up.

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Shulem
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Getting rid of the bitter fruit with a blast from the past!

Post by Shulem »

PRESIDENT HEBER J. GRANT, General Conference October 1944 wrote:
I want it understood that the use of liquor and tobacco is one of the chief means in the hands of the adversary whereby he is enabled to lead boys and girls from virtue. Nearly always those who lose their virtue first partake of those things that excite passions within them or lower their resistance and becloud their minds. Partaking of tobacco and liquor is calculated to make them a prey to those things which, if indulged in, are worse than death itself. There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her virtue — realizing that virtue is of more value than anything else in all the wide world.
Brethren and sisters you may now take out your shovels and bury your bad fruit! It would be better that your fruit perish and you bury it rather than it live on in sin.

How many boys and girls in Mormonism have lost their virtue? It would be better if they climb into their caskets and let their parents shovel dirt on them.

Jesus H Christ. That's Mormonism, folks.

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Kishkumen
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:12 pm
Actually, I'm confident Joseph never even considered the possibility of gay Nephites.
Joseph Smith does not seem to have had anything to say about homosexuality period. Did he say anything?

I have always found it extremely odd that the LDS Church has such an unkind/unforgiving position regarding gender, when the most one can say about Joseph Smith and homosexuality was that he seemed to be completely unaware of it. Certainly he gives no indication that God had inspired him to speak on the subject or share a revelation about it.

And yet the LDS Church is so staunchly set against it.

Crazy stuff.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Dr Exiled
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Dr Exiled »

The Nephites/Lamanites were the first to implement "don't ask, don't tell?" Anyway, I agree with the above, Joseph didn't consider homosexuality as he was too obsessed with young women and other men's wives.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Shulem
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Re: "Bitter Fruit"

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:58 am
The Nephites/Lamanites were the first to implement "don't ask, don't tell?" Anyway, I agree with the above, Joseph didn't consider homosexuality as he was too obsessed with young women and other men's wives.
Exactly. Smith was totally straight and didn't perceive homosexuals as any kind of threat to his main ambition in life which was to score lots of women -- more notches on his bedpost -- and then dump them when he grew tired of them and on to the next conquest. Less competition against Smith was what he desired most and anyone who had homosexual tendencies was not going to approach or threaten his claims to get more women. In fact, Smith was probably just fine with it as it gave him more opportunities to exploit the women at hand.

So, it seems, Smith was pretty much for gay rights because it furthered his own personal cause.

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