Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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I'd like to see what Dan Vogel said that was subsequently deleted. Anyone copy his comment? Dan, could you perhaps comment over here?
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:55 pm
I'd like to see what Dan Vogel said that was subsequently deleted. Anyone copy his comment? Dan, could you perhaps comment over here?
I read his comment and thought it was concise and respectful. I have to think that the reason his comment was deleted is because it linked to his Book of Abraham videos which don't necessarily paint a positive light on Smith's ability to translate Egyptian -- exposing him for being a charlatan in showing how he mishandled the papyrus and pretending to be able to translate through divine means.

Vogel tears faith down while Muhlestein builds it (shame on you, Vogel). Do you see the difference? Faith is the first principle of the Mormon gospel and everything that opposes it be damned.

I've said all along that faith in Mormonism is very dangerous. Mormonism is a cult. It's a wicked system of religion that binds and ties the hearts and minds in order to pay tithes and pledge ABSOLUTE devotion to it's evil craft even if you have to slit your own throat doing it.

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Everybody Wang Chung: "This isn't scholarship, this is confirmation bias."

That's absolutely right. Just because " all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs" doesn't mean all scholars have created an explicit paradigm out of their biases, worship their biases as if they're sacred, and then go on to support the paradigm they created with their research, never leaving open the possibility that they could ever be wrong.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:18 pm
I think it only discredits Gee and Muhelstein to parrot this ridiculous idea that Joseph got anything “right”, much less an incredibly unlikely amount of things “right.”

So much is wrong that the only notable “odds metric” supported by the data is that Joseph might be the unluckiest seer/prophet in all of religious history.
I think you are onto something here. They will never discuss here and which "translations" Joseph Smith got wrong. They are always leaving the impression that there is literally nothing amiss at all in anything with the facsimiles and papyri.......it's too ludicrously biased to believe. It's lost any semblence of realism. They want to make Smith infallible. Their problem now is their own ludicrousness in this bias.
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Some say the book of abraham is a smoking gun or the smoking gun against Mormonism. I personally think it is a cumulative case. But the failures of book of abraham apologetics sure give bofa as the smoking gun a place near the front of the table.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Dan Petersen has chimed in about he Muhlestein video claiming that all is well with Kerry and the authorities in Egypt.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... raham.html
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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"Most people believe Abraham was a real person", referring to a couple of billion Muslims, Christians, and a smattering of Jews. Kerry Muhlestein says he takes comfort in that since he (Kerry) is a real person and thus can relate to a real person in Abraham. Pretty sure most Mormons and Muslims would find Abraham to be more real than Confucius. However, what if that same group was asked if the Book of Mormon was real? Pretty sure Kerry would argue in that circumstance that it does not matter what the majority believes.
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Muhlestein is attempting to appeal to listeners by finding a common ground in which believers across the board believe in a literal Abraham -- so look at us, the FAITHFUL and we are righteous while those apostates who discredit the Book of Abraham are wicked. Kerry will use what he thinks is the majority to suit his purposes. But is it really the majority in this case? Considering the billions of Chinese and Hindus who put no stock in Abraham it might just be that the numbers are actually more even for and against.

Finding comfort in the majority when it comes to faith is a baby's blanket to comfort their child-like faith. Heck, how many children around the world have faith that Santa is a real person? Faith in something not true doesn't make it real. Abraham in the Book of Abraham is a matter of faith but has been shown to be false. Everything about Smith's Book of Abraham has been shown to be wrong. Only the gullible are falling for it. The world outside of Mormonism will NEVER fall for the Book of Abraham. It is a poor selling point coming from the Church and they need to just get rid of it. Nobody outside the Church will ever believe the nonsense in the Book of Abraham.

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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The more I think about it, the more I think the apologists should leave the historicity field as the war is lost. They and the church should retreat to focusing on spiritual conversion and don't battle any more on whether or not the book of Mormon was translated into EmodE or whether or not the bofa is a legitimate translation of something. It'll be less embarrassing when caught making silly responses that cannot stand up to scrutiny, like LGT, etc. and will allow less of a bunker mentality for the apologists. It'll allow Kiwi57 to finally give up on calling everyone who disagrees with him a bigot. Frankly, the apologists' job will no longer be necessary and Mormons everywhere won't be forced to embarrass themselves either in supporting the unsupportable. They can simply respond as senor dodo did to the BBC reporter when he said that he didn't know egyptian but believed the BofA was the word of God regardless.

Maybe the new slogan can be F____ History, The Church is True!
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:12 pm
Strangely, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham is not based on Egyptology in any way." 11.20
Where does that statement leave Gee’s career-long apologetic work?

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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I have a question wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:38 am
consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:12 pm
Strangely, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham is not based on Egyptology in any way." 11.20
Where does that statement leave Gee’s career-long apologetic work?
Gee would have us believe that Egyptology is based on the Book of Abraham which is the final authority and the revealed truth on which to base modern science. According to Gee, Egyptology and science must bow the knee before Joseph Smith.

You see why I say Gee is an APOSTATE Egyptologist? Do you see why I say that Gee is an enemy to Egyptology? He should be thrown out of the profession and dismissed as a heretic.

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:44 am
Dan Petersen has chimed in about he Muhlestein video claiming that all is well with Kerry and the authorities in Egypt.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... raham.html
Which is pure bull roar. Things are NOT well, but there are attempts at a dialogue. Sheesh! Peterson is the misreader of everything these days isn't he?!
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:51 am
It'll allow Kiwi57 to finally give up on calling everyone who disagrees with him a bigot.
Hard to imagine Kiwi giving up so easily.
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by I have a question »

I have a question wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:38 am
consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:12 pm
Strangely, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham is not based on Egyptology in any way." 11.20
Where does that statement leave Gee’s career-long apologetic work?
William (Bill) Gay Research Chair,[16] which focuses on study directly related to the ancient world and LDS scripture, particularly the Book of Abraham (the chair's current occupant is Egyptologist John Gee).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Institute
According to that statement from Muhlestein, the William (Bill) Gay Research Chair has been a pointless exercise.

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vYq ... Um8lg/edit

This example of a hypocephalus so similar to Fac 2 I love to know how Kerry would explain the appendage that the 'dove" has.
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Post by Shulem »

aussieguy55 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:00 am
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vYq ... Um8lg/edit

This example of a hypocephalus so similar to Fac 2 I love to know how Kerry would explain the appendage that the 'dove" has.
Image

Receive the Holy Ghost!

OMFG. That damn snake really is a problem for Kerry Muhlestein.

:biggrin:

What would President NelSatan do?

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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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He still has a bet each way. He is desperately hanging onto both the missing scroll and catalyst theories. Gotta keep that paycheck coming in.
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

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They deleted my comment, so I’ll post it here:

Unfortunately, Kerry Muhlestein is still asserting the old Nibley apologetic that the translation of the Book of Abraham came before the three Egyptian Alphabets and Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar book. The best interpretation of the data is that the translation came after. This changes everything. The reversal of chronology that Muhlestein and other maintain makes a complete mess of the documentary evidence, which requires the invention of other strange interpretations promulgated by Muhlestein and John Gee. For a response to such apologetic attempts, see my 8-part video series “Truth of the Book of Abraham.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtJT_xjIgdM
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Dan Vogel »

Lemmie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:55 pm
I don’t know if this was posted, does it accompany the video?
Update from Kerry Muhlestein re: Raising the Abrahamic Discourse
September 2, 2020 by Trevor Holyoak 1 Comment

[This is an update to a post from August 25, Raising the Abrahamic Discourse: An Essay on the Nature of Dialogues About the Book of Abraham]

UPDATE
I believe that academic dialogue is important and can be fruitful. There are many scholars who are academically interested in the Book of Abraham, its translation, and its content. Some scholars have even made such study their life’s work. (This is not unusual in many specialized subject areas.)

Regardless of the area of study, all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs. It is impossible for a scholar to be a “blank slate” when it comes to any field of study. It is no surprise that my existing beliefs are consistent with what I view as the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. It is likewise no surprise that others, including Professor Ritner, start with a set of beliefs that preclude divine involvement in the work of Joseph Smith.

With that in mind and because I am truly interested in academic dialogue about the Book of Abraham, before I posted any kind of response online, I personally contacted Professor Ritner. I suggested that we work together on creating an academic volume on the subject. I suggested possible guidelines for doing so, possible academic venues, possible editors, and even a potential table of contents. I modeled it after volumes on contested issues that have been successfully done in academia elsewhere. The goal would be to have a balanced approach observing the highest academic rigor and tone, creating a dialogue with each other rather than having parties who speak past each other. If done correctly, I believe that such an approach can lead to real progress.

Dr. Ritner graciously declined, citing his current health circumstances. This is very understandable. I have responded, letting him know that I am open to other options as long as we can find something that would adhere to appropriate academic standards. I have also offered to fly to Chicago, once pandemic conditions have stabilized, to discuss this matter with him.

Finally, I hope that no one will speculate about Professor Ritner’s reasons for declining my invitation. The best thing for all of us is that others do not presume they know what either his or my intentions are, and that we are both given a reasonable space to work towards something together in the midst of his difficult circumstances. I believe it is possible to make true academic progress in this matter, and will continue to work towards making that happen.

Kerry Muhlestein, September 2, 2020

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/09 ... -discourse
I hate when apologists begin by saying everyone has a bias and therefore Mormons have a right to make things up to explain away negative evidence.That's not how scholarship works.The dividing line is not between believers and non-believers, it's between good scholarship and bad scholarship. Just because Muhlestein is a believer and he offers explanations that are consistent with a fundamentalist view of Joseph Smith and Mormonism does not mean that his scholarship isn't "abhorrent," to use Hauglid's term. Haulid's scholarship used to be abhorrent, but his more recent work was, as he promised, more rational and reasoned. Yet he and other Mormon scholars are seeking an explanation for the Book of Abraham that is both faithful and reasonable. Muhlestein's and Gee's approach relies on the invention of several absurd theories: the long scroll; an actual Book of Abraham now missing; the translation was completed by July 1835; the translation came first and then the Egyptian Alphabets; the Alphabets were the work of Phelps, not Joseph Smith; the Hebrew elements in Abraham 3-5 were added in Nauvoo to an already existing text, etc.
Last edited by Dan Vogel on Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
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Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Gadianton »

I think it's hilarious that they simultaneously demand a joint book venture with Ritner, while at the same time erasing DV's comment.

I suppose they'd want controlling share of the book venture, to make sure the faithful readers didn't get any negative ideas about Mopologist theories?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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