Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

It appears the Dr. Ritner interviews have caused quite a stir.

In addition to the essay Dr. Muhlestein put out in the virtual pages of The Interpreter: a Journal of Latter-day Saint Thought, last week, he has only bare hours ago put up an 18-minute video at Pearl of Great Price Central.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gie2y16 ... 1tVZSBfSPc

This video is, however, most decidedly NOT a response to Dr. Ritner.

We know this because Dr. Muhlestein studiously avoids mentioning his name.

Give it a listen and let me know how well you think Dr. Muhlestein does!

All the Best!

RFM
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
Everybody Wang Chung
God
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

“I start out with an assumption that the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon, and anything else that we get from the restored gospel, is true. Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm." Kerry Muhlestein

https://www.deseret.com/2014/8/12/20546 ... d-in-egypt

This isn't scholarship, this is confirmation bias. How can anyone take Muhlestein seriously when he readily admits that any and all evidence he finds, he is going to cram into the paradigm that the Book of Abraham is true?

Kerry?
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014

Stem
God
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Stem »

He does fine in that little vid. Isn't he trying to promote his defenses found on various sites, and trying to get the message to members that the Book of Abraham has many smart people claiming it to be scripture, so everything's cool? Seemed to be his goal. Anyway means to get there, I guess.

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

"You have to say that Joseph Smith was hundreds of times luckier than any other person that has ever lived on Earth to have gotten all of these things so right."15.35

Hundreds? Sounds like an exaggeration.

The same kind of "millions of mummies" exaggeration that got Dr. Muhlestein's permit to dig in Egypt revoked.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

An interesting exercise is to count how many times he says, "I don't know" when talking about what he can conclude academically about the Book of Abraham. I am pretty sure the only time he says, "I know" is when talking about a spiritual witness.

Unofficial Tally--Dr. Muhlestein says "I don't know" or its variants 15 times during this 18-minute video.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

Strangely, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham is not based on Egyptology in any way." 11.20
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

In his only oblique reference to Dr. Ritner, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham doesn't rise or fall on my opinion or reputation, or on another scholar's opinion or reputation." 13.03
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

Stem
God
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Stem »

Still...it'd be nice if he'd just agree to discuss with Ritner "all of these things" he got "so right".

"what specifically"

"Well, I mean he said that the crocodile was a god, didn't he?"

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Dr Moore »

consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:13 pm
In his only oblique reference to Dr. Ritner, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham doesn't rise or fall on my opinion or reputation, or on another scholar's opinion or reputation." 13.03
Correct. So Kerry’s Egyptology Ph.D. has no relevance either way. I believe this defense against Ritner is nothing other than the Kamikaze method, the suicidal last resort.

And thus Kerry and John have reduced themselves to average devotional teachers, who happen to have irrelevant side hobbies in Egyptology.

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

Mic drop!

BOOM!!!
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Holy Ghost »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:50 pm
consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:13 pm
In his only oblique reference to Dr. Ritner, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham doesn't rise or fall on my opinion or reputation, or on another scholar's opinion or reputation." 13.03
Correct. So Kerry’s Egyptology Ph.D. has no relevance either way. I believe this defense against Ritner is nothing other than the Kamikaze method, the suicidal last resort.

And thus Kerry and John have reduced themselves to average devotional teachers, who happen to have irrelevant side hobbies in Egyptology.
They've never been more than that when it comes to the Book of Abraham.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

User avatar
consiglieri
God
Posts: 6183
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

But now he is actually admitting it! Lol!
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:12 pm
An interesting exercise is to count how many times he says, "I don't know" when talking about what he can conclude academically about the Book of Abraham. I am pretty sure the only time he says, "I know" is when talking about a spiritual witness.

Unofficial Tally--Dr. Muhlestein says "I don't know" or its variants 15 times during this 18-minute video.
Joseph Smith got virtually nothing right.

Muhlestein is a clown. He should have been a used cars salesman. People that believe that fool deserve what they get. He's speaking out of both sides of his cheeks having lying lips and a forked tongue. The man is a devil.

:mad:

aussieguy55
God
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:22 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by aussieguy55 »

They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

aussieguy55 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:34 pm
They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.
They can't delete our comments here and they can't stop Radio Free Mormon until such time as it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the Book of Abraham is removed from Mormon canon and Shulem's work is done.

:lol:

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Lemmie »

I don’t know if this was posted, does it accompany the video?
Update from Kerry Muhlestein re: Raising the Abrahamic Discourse
September 2, 2020 by Trevor Holyoak 1 Comment

[This is an update to a post from August 25, Raising the Abrahamic Discourse: An Essay on the Nature of Dialogues About the Book of Abraham]

UPDATE
I believe that academic dialogue is important and can be fruitful. There are many scholars who are academically interested in the Book of Abraham, its translation, and its content. Some scholars have even made such study their life’s work. (This is not unusual in many specialized subject areas.)

Regardless of the area of study, all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs. It is impossible for a scholar to be a “blank slate” when it comes to any field of study. It is no surprise that my existing beliefs are consistent with what I view as the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. It is likewise no surprise that others, including Professor Ritner, start with a set of beliefs that preclude divine involvement in the work of Joseph Smith.

With that in mind and because I am truly interested in academic dialogue about the Book of Abraham, before I posted any kind of response online, I personally contacted Professor Ritner. I suggested that we work together on creating an academic volume on the subject. I suggested possible guidelines for doing so, possible academic venues, possible editors, and even a potential table of contents. I modeled it after volumes on contested issues that have been successfully done in academia elsewhere. The goal would be to have a balanced approach observing the highest academic rigor and tone, creating a dialogue with each other rather than having parties who speak past each other. If done correctly, I believe that such an approach can lead to real progress.

Dr. Ritner graciously declined, citing his current health circumstances. This is very understandable. I have responded, letting him know that I am open to other options as long as we can find something that would adhere to appropriate academic standards. I have also offered to fly to Chicago, once pandemic conditions have stabilized, to discuss this matter with him.

Finally, I hope that no one will speculate about Professor Ritner’s reasons for declining my invitation. The best thing for all of us is that others do not presume they know what either his or my intentions are, and that we are both given a reasonable space to work towards something together in the midst of his difficult circumstances. I believe it is possible to make true academic progress in this matter, and will continue to work towards making that happen.

Kerry Muhlestein, September 2, 2020

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/09 ... -discourse

User avatar
Everybody Wang Chung
God
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

aussieguy55 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:34 pm
They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.
Why on earth did they delete Dan Vogel’s comment? It was professional and academic. There were no personal attacks or anything remotely disparaging.

Good Lord! Those Mopologists sure can’t handle open and honest debates.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014

User avatar
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 6578
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Philo Sofee »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:59 pm
aussieguy55 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:34 pm
They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.
Why on earth did they delete Dan Vogel’s comment? It was professional and academic. There were no personal attacks or anything remotely disparaging.

Good Lord! Those Mopologists sure can’t handle open and honest debates.
Because they will lose, and they know it. It's why discoursing with them is a waste of time. They will always make sure things are loaded to favor them one way or another. The Gospel cannot uphold itself, it needs supporting apologetic lies to make it coherent. That is, truly, all one needs to know.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."

User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:03 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by malkie »

consiglieri wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:11 pm
"You have to say that Joseph Smith was hundreds of times luckier than any other person that has ever lived on Earth to have gotten all of these things so right."15.35

Hundreds? Sounds like an exaggeration.

The same kind of "millions of mummies" exaggeration that got Dr. Muhlestein's permit to dig in Egypt revoked.
Not at all, Consig ...

... but only if data analysis is provided by Bruce & Brian Dale :razz:
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:54 pm
Because they will lose, and they know it. It's why discoursing with them is a waste of time. They will always make sure things are loaded to favor them one way or another. The Gospel cannot uphold itself, it needs supporting apologetic lies to make it coherent. That is, truly, all one needs to know.
Mealy-mouthed Muhlestein, with a sly devilish look, is only going to fool the dumb and stupid re-tarded brains of the M O R M O N Church who are desperate to be accepted as Christians -- "Look at us, we're Christians too".

:lol:

No, they aren't Christians; not until they get rid of Heavenly Father's exposed erect penis sticking out in Facsimile No. 2. Oh my God!

:surprised:

Run Mary, run!

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

Post by Dr Moore »

I think it only discredits Gee and Muhelstein to parrot this ridiculous idea that Joseph got anything “right”, much less an incredibly unlikely amount of things “right.”

So much is wrong that the only notable “odds metric” supported by the data is that Joseph might be the unluckiest seer/prophet in all of religious history.

Post Reply