RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Philo Sofee
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RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Philo Sofee »

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/08/rad ... ent-227879

This is the singular most delightful hour of listening to RFM I have ever had the privilege of having. THANK YOU RFM! Truly inspirational, explanatory, definitely challenging, completely enlightening, and educational, useful, and willing to tell it like it is. This is one not to miss. The challenge for Muhlestein is up. Man up or shut up Muhlestein, RFM has your number, you can run, but you CANNOT hide. You fool no one.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Shulem »

I've listened to it 3 times and have thoroughly enjoyed RFM's capable hands in taking the bull by the horns. I think he has a good grasp of the issues and will continue to heat up and get better and better.

Look out, John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein!

:lol:

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Shulem wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:46 pm
I've listened to it 3 times and have thoroughly enjoyed RFM's capable hands in taking the bull by the horns. I think he has a good grasp of the issues and will continue to heat up and get better and better.

Look out, John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein!

:lol:
RFM is the singular most sane, intelligent, easy to grasp with the issues, pointing out blatant contradictions there has ever been concerning Mormonism. He is God's gift to us all. I don't say that lightly. He proves one does not have to be an Egyptologist in order to understand Egyptology and the issues. I am so truly grateful I no longer am stuck on the wrong side of these issues.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Yeah, RFM has his finger on the Book of Abraham button. He's pulled some chains and has been noticed. He is empowered to do this work. He also has plenty of support and helping hands right here on this board. Lights are flashing and buzzers are sounding.

Woohoo!

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:59 pm
Yeah, RFM has his finger on the Book of Abraham button. He's pulled some chains and has been noticed. He is empowered to do this work. He also has plenty of support and helping hands right here on this board. Lights are flashing and buzzers are sounding.

Woohoo!
The irony with David Bokovoy is priceless!!! Muhlestein is a sh-it, pure and simple. A hypocritical liar. A coward. RFM demonstrates this in the most powerful there there is to be seen, er, heard..... :lol: Simply masterful. And this is not being ad hominim, amazingly enough! RFM has literally the evidence!
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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RFM goes for the jugular and succeeds in choking out our distinguished apologist brother Muhlestein in that episode. Will Muhlestein have the guts to respond? It doesn't look like it or at least that any response will be forthcoming any time soon. Muhlestein knows the issues backwards and forwards, yet claims he needs a mountain of time to respond. Is he a yella coward or are the brethren holding him back?

What possible response could he give anyway? Dr. Ritner thoroughly trounced any conclusions other than Joseph Smith inventing the book of abraham. The papyri clearly don't match the book and how can anyone claim the papyri were a catalyst when Joseph claims it was written by Abraham? Then the anachronisms have to be dealt with and the crazy astronomy, etc. Also, the missing scroll theory was debunked by Christopher Smith.

So, maybe it is wise from the church's pov to remain silent and not face RFM's devastating cross examination?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Philo Sofee »

Yeah, after all, they have to say something, so a non-response response is all they have.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Stem »

That was absolutely wiping out Muhlestein's response. I mean what a pathetic response, he gave. I've enjoyed the show, but that doesn't stop me from noticing how depressing it is to see how evasive and dishonest these apologists can be under Church employ. Admittedly I don't have the highest esteem for the church already, but this takes us down another sad road.

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Dr Moore »

It's odd for sure that we have here a leading world expert calling out Gee and Muhelstein for SPECIFIC instances of dishonest scholarship. And they literally refuse to engage on those SPECIFIC accusations. Bad form guys. You're flushing your case down the drain.

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by DarkHelmet »

That was a brutal takedown. Muhlestein's could have simply declined Ritner's offer to debate, but he felt the need to offer a reason, resulting in a long-winded, rambling, excuse. No matter how many words are in the blog post, or how flowery the language, it's a still weak excuse.

The ending song was perfect. RFM is always on point with his music selection. It made me laugh. The long list of hilariously violent things that will happen to Sir Robin have already happened, figuratively, to the Book of Abraham, and the apologists who continue to defend it. Muhlestein is smart enough to know that if he debates Ritner, it will look like another scene from the Holy Grail - Muhlestein, the Black Knight, confidently declaring victory while bleeding to death.

A couple other parts worth mentioning:

At 27:37 Muhlestein offers an example of misrepresentation. Now, he makes it clear throughout his blog post (over and over again) that he is NOT going to get into an online debate with Robert Ritner. Instead, he will write a book, and we must patiently wait for it. So it is noteworthy that he offers an example here.

I think it's safe to assume that Muhlesten believes this example is one of his strongest points, perhaps his strongest point. He's not going to provide a weak example to make his point. Nobody is putting him on the spot to think of an example off the top of his head. He's writing an article, so he has time to come up with a really good example to illustrate his point. So what example does he provide? He says Egyptologists assume Joseph Smith reconstructed facsimile 1 incorrectly, when it's plausible, even probable, that Joseph copied exactly what facsimile 1 looked like before it was damaged.

Seriously? That's his best example? He's saying maybe, just maybe, the pieces that no longer exist, and will never exist again, prove Joseph Smith didn't make it up. If that's a preview of the best arguments Muhlestein will make in his book, it's clear apologists haven't made any progress since the first Egyptologists ripped apart the Book of Abraham in the 1800s.

At 1:05:04 Muhlestein compares the online discourse around the Book of Abraham to a frothy, foamy lather that is only air with no substance. Interesting analogy, because I think that's a perfect description of Muhlestein's blog post. I found Dehlin and RFM's interview with Ritner dense with substance, to the point where it sometimes got dry and boring with all the technical, Egyptian details. I'm sure Ritner tried to dumb it down as much as possible for lay-people like me, but I still felt like I was in one of his college classes trying to retain the information as best I could. Contrast that with Muhlestein's rambling, heavily padded, blog post that he could have summed up in a few sentences - "I won't debate Ritner. Instead, I will write a book. Stay tuned." That's all you needed to write, Kerry.

He'll make a few bucks from the hundred or so TBMs who actually care. To everyone else, he's irrelevant.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by thechair »

Here are my few thoughts after listening to RFM's Muhlstein podcast.

1. Muhlstein's dissing of the podcast medium is absurd. I could understand this posture if RFM had called him out to a soundbite duel over social media or twitter, but not to a long-form debate over podcasting. Some very complex and critical debates were once had over existential issues in a form of similar length to podcasts: Lincoln vs. Douglas in the 1858 Illinois Senate race. The two titans squared off seven times in seven Illinois towns over issues that wouldn't be settled until April of 1865. They argued over whether it was lawful for Congress to restrict slavery in the territories, over who created the Union, the People or the states, and many other related issues. Whoever went first, Lincoln or Douglas, would make his case for an hour. The other would then rebut for 90 minutes, and the first would then do a 30-minute rejoinder. It occurs to me that if Lincoln and Douglas can spar over the meaning of personhood, freedom, and the nature of the Union in a 60-90-30 debate format, surely Muhlstein should see the adaptability of podcasting to a Book of Abraham debate series. He and RFM could jockey over conditions and parameters. There is no reason to reject out of hand podcasting as a format.

2. Muhlstein's elevation of academic process and language for discussion of Book of Abraham issues indicates consciousness of a weak case. The Book of Abraham was published to the members of the church and to the world at large. Its legitimacy therefore ought to be discussed in an accessible format. Professor Ritner and RFM showed they can break down complex and nuanced issues and discuss them in plain English. If highly-educated skeptics can question Book of Abraham origins in plain English, then there's no reason Muhlstein and Gee can't defend the Book of Abraham in plain English. This sort of wagon-circling reminds me of John Gross's quip, "Complexity is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Orwell also comes to mind; here's a nugget from his Politics and the English Language:

"A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outlines and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink."

3. Ritner and Vogel and others make a VERY strong case against the Book of Abraham's origin story. If this were a criminal case to be tried in front of a jury, I'd call the case against Book of Abraham authenticity so far "beyond a reasonable doubt." Without contrary evidence, this is enough to convict in a criminal case and is the highest level of proof in litigation. Meanwhile, unless its orthodox defenders engage at a similar, plain-language level, those with questions will continue to turn for answers about Book of Abraham to the Dehlin/RFM/Ritner episodes, to Dan Vogel, to CES Letter, Mormonthink, and to those here for information. What will they find there? The case against the Book of Abraham orgins beyond a reasonable doubt. The clock's-a-tickin'. What they almost certainly will not do is WAIT a long time only to be presented with a large text or with academic articles written in academese. Expert opinions are of little value to juries unless they are unpacked and explained--DURING the trial and in plain English.

4. RFM's bumper/outro music is sans pareil.

thechair

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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The chair
The Book of Abraham was published to the members of the church and to the world at large. Its legitimacy therefore ought to be discussed in an accessible format. Professor Ritner and RFM showed they can break down complex and nuanced issues and discuss them in plain English. If highly-educated skeptics can question Book of Abraham origins in plain English, then there's no reason Muhlstein and Gee can't defend the Book of Abraham in plain English.
This is the magnaminous take away that floors anything the LDS scholars will come up with. It is simply by no stretch of the imagination so complex Mormons won't be able to sort it out without apologetic spin. Ritner simplified it perfectly, while demonstrating there IS complexity, but of course, that is not in question. But to say nothing can be concluded is totally false, and we know LDS scholars know this.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Shulem »

Philo,

If Muhlestein agreed to come on Mormon Discussions to discuss and debate Book of Abraham apologetics, do you think you'd be able to handle that slimy little worm? Could you take him and Gee on at the same time, a worm in both hands?

:biggrin:

You wound't run with ur tail tucked would ya?

:lol:

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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If John Gee had never been a Mormon, and someone handed him the Book of Abraham papyri, then handed him the Book of Abraham and claimed that the latter is a translation of the former, would Gee believe that person?

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Temp. Admin. wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:30 am
If John Gee had never been a Mormon, and someone handed him the Book of Abraham papyri, then handed him the Book of Abraham and claimed that the latter is a translation of the former, would Gee believe that person?
Of course he would not any more than Robert Ritner and every other nonMormon Egyptologists. It's safe to say that ALL of them know about the Joseph Smith incident which is quite documented; this from Cracking Codes The Rosetta Stone and Decipherment:
Richard Parkinson -- British Museum Keeper wrote:. . . . it was not the first influential attempt to 'translate' Egyptian texts, since the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith Jr had in 1835-44 worked on three Roman period funerary papyri, one of which he translated by direct inspiration as now canonical scripture, The Book of Abraham.
Egyptologists around the world (and they are relatively few in number) are not flocking to the church to get baptized in order to testify how they know Smith translated the Book of Abraham.

Do you think John Gee's faith is faltering right about now? With his new book being pulled and all the seeming persecution against him he must feel somewhat dejected. Surely he can't really believe in the Missing Roll? It's just more of the same stuff in which Smith had cut up and put behind the glass frames for display. Gee can read the writing of the Facsimiles so you'd think he would think the same for the lost portions as well. More of the same stuff.

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem
Do you think John Gee's faith is faltering right about now? With his new book being pulled and all the seeming persecution against him he must feel somewhat dejected.
Nope.He gets paid big money from the church affiliated College, BYU. His testimony is IRRELEVANT and is compartmentalized into a place where reality and truth cannot reach... at least until he retires and secures his pension. He will remain LDS no matter what truth refutes him. Russell Nelson can personally tell Gee that nothing he writes is correct, and it wouldn't even phase him... lets quit pretending he or any other apologist who is paid by LDS Inc is ever going to apostatize. It ain't happenin.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

Post by Shulem »

Well, thanks for your opinion on that. It's quite disturbing to say the least that Gee is so locked into it all.

I really loath the Church and what it does to people. Very sad, indeed.

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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:00 pm
Well, thanks for your opinion on that. It's quite disturbing to say the least that Gee is so locked into it all.

I really loath the Church and what it does to people. Very sad, indeed.
But it's not disturbing.........it's obviously predictable. They are PAID by the church. You simply don't throw away a 6 digit salary that you would literally get nowhere else because of the ridiculous silliness you would, as an employee, proclaim to be actual history. They are stuck, and they are paid more than enough to be more than happy enough to drink the Kool Aid, and try to get all others around them to partake as well.
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Re: RFM Annihilates Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein, TOTAL Wipe Out!!!

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:28 pm
it's not disturbing.........it's obviously predictable. They are PAID by the church. You simply don't throw away a 6 digit salary that you would literally get nowhere else because of the ridiculous silliness you would, as an employee, proclaim to be actual history. They are stuck, and they are paid more than enough to be more than happy enough to drink the Kool Aid, and try to get all others around them to partake as well.
I disagree. I would throw away a 6 digit salary paid by the Church in order to come clean and cleanup the mess created out of lies and deception sponsored by the church. I wouldn't sell my soul for a mess a pottage which is what Gee and his little lapdog Muhlestein are doing. Muhlestein is nothing more than a strip tease dancer performing for his pasty faced boss, Gee.

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