Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Kishkumen
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Thank you, that is very nice to say. But RFM has demonstrated the Mormons want no part of truth and reality. They want their mythology over truth, their fantasy over reality. They are simply not capable of coming here and dialoguing, and they know it, and we know it. They cannot win, the evidence refutes them. It actually is just that simple now.
I really like you, Philo, but sometimes it really amazes me to think that you were both a Freemason and a friend of Joe Steve Swick III. Surely there is room in life for myth. We tell stories because we have an imperfect grasp of reality. You talk about reality, but do you really think anyone of us is actually capable of taking in all of what some might describe as the totality of what is real? What offends me about the Mopologists is their insistence that myth is reality, not that they might like myth. I would go so far as to say that they seem to lack any appreciation of or respect for myth, and this is why they insist on being literal about everything.
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:59 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Thank you, that is very nice to say. But RFM has demonstrated the Mormons want no part of truth and reality. They want their mythology over truth, their fantasy over reality. They are simply not capable of coming here and dialoguing, and they know it, and we know it. They cannot win, the evidence refutes them. It actually is just that simple now.
I really like you, Philo, but sometimes it really amazes me to think that you were both a Freemason and a friend of Joe Steve Swick III. Surely there is room in life for myth. We tell stories because we have an imperfect grasp of reality. You talk about reality, but do you really think anyone of us is actually capable of taking in all of what some might describe as the totality of what is real? What offends me about the Mopologists is their insistence that myth is reality, not that they might like myth. I would go so far as to say that they seem to lack any appreciation of or respect for myth, and this is why they insist on being literal about everything.
I don’t think it’s their fault entirely. The Church they were brought up in ingrained in them that all those belief stories were literally true. Adam & Eve - literal, the global flood - literal, The Book Of Mormon - literal, The Book Of Abraham - literal. That, in my opinion, is why anyone with a Mormon upbringing finds it hard to accept as myth anything relating to Mormonism. And because the moment they start to accept things as myth, the whole shebang unravels.

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Stem wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:37 am
Excellent letter.

Muhlestein has no intention to engage. Ritner pointed out a million things in the podcast series some of us listened to. Muhlestein mentions an item or two, without mentioning Ritner, and without an attempt to engage what specifically was being said, and then complains about the lack of engagement. He's simply signaling to apologists and using authority (in this case by virtue of his degree) to pacify any questioners. I don't know Muhlestein and I do not care hardly at all about the Book of Abraham. I still think it's about as useful to a Mormon as is 3/4ths of the OT. They simply are largely ignored. For some reason I've followed it to some degree or another and during workouts I listened to the Ritner podcast (it was good). Anyway, I don't know why any Mormon would care at all, anyway.

The Mormon Church could say tomorrow, "the Book of Abraham isn't scripture. I mean we like some of it, but it's not scripture. We're going to take it out of the cannon, even if we believe that one passage we keep quoting. We'll quote it and use it, but the rest, I mean, it's kind weird and may not really represent anything true about the real old time Abraham. Just know, believers, Joseph didn't really elevate it as scripture and it was only elevated as such because back in the 19th century after Joseph died there were some speculations and those took on a life of their own sometimes. But they didn't mislead anyone. I mean it's fine. We're in control and get it. You know? So just keep on believing and reading your scriptures. You can read the Book of Abraham, just don't worry too much about it. And Jesus loves you, don't forget."

And the members largely wouldn't blink an eye. I mean certainly some will be appalled and upset (Gee and Muhlestein will basically lose their jobs), but most won't care. I"m only pointing this out to suggest that's why Muhlestein gets away with it--no one cares.
If, as you posit, no one would care if the LDS leadership ____ the Book of Abraham, that would be a phenomena we are seeing play out on the American political stage right now, right before our own eyes: Trump-mania. Truth doesn't matter to a very large segment of people. Mormonism makes many people feel good, special, the Chosen people. They keep going back for more, for their weekly dose. Trumpism makes many Americans feel good, special, American exceptionalism, and they too, keep going back for more, wanting four more years. Others of us are flummoxed at witnessing this phenomena. How can you keep going to church, "bearing your testimony" and paying tithing? Joseph Smith was a fraud. How can you believe Trump, he lies and exaggerates? Trump is a fraud. But just like downing a pint of Ben and Jerry's at midnight while you are on a diet trying to lose 20 lbs., it's an indulgence. It makes them feel good.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:59 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Thank you, that is very nice to say. But RFM has demonstrated the Mormons want no part of truth and reality. They want their mythology over truth, their fantasy over reality. They are simply not capable of coming here and dialoguing, and they know it, and we know it. They cannot win, the evidence refutes them. It actually is just that simple now.
I really like you, Philo, but sometimes it really amazes me to think that you were both a Freemason and a friend of Joe Steve Swick III. Surely there is room in life for myth. We tell stories because we have an imperfect grasp of reality. You talk about reality, but do you really think anyone of us is actually capable of taking in all of what some might describe as the totality of what is real? What offends me about the Mopologists is their insistence that myth is reality, not that they might like myth. I would go so far as to say that they seem to lack any appreciation of or respect for myth, and this is why they insist on being literal about everything.
Maybe myth is like salt.

Good for seasoning but not the main course.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:59 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Thank you, that is very nice to say. But RFM has demonstrated the Mormons want no part of truth and reality. They want their mythology over truth, their fantasy over reality. They are simply not capable of coming here and dialoguing, and they know it, and we know it. They cannot win, the evidence refutes them. It actually is just that simple now.
I really like you, Philo, but sometimes it really amazes me to think that you were both a Freemason and a friend of Joe Steve Swick III. Surely there is room in life for myth. We tell stories because we have an imperfect grasp of reality. You talk about reality, but do you really think anyone of us is actually capable of taking in all of what some might describe as the totality of what is real? What offends me about the Mopologists is their insistence that myth is reality, not that they might like myth. I would go so far as to say that they seem to lack any appreciation of or respect for myth, and this is why they insist on being literal about everything.
I'm trying to say the same thing, just not as well. I am not quite sure what being a Freemason and friends with Joe Swick has to do with it. I'm missing the connection.
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

Post by aussieguy55 »

Kerry has interview up on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gie2y16BsDg
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:50 am
Kerry has interview up on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gie2y16BsDg
I have to think that Radio Free Mormon will need to check that out. It may be cause for another EMERGENCY broadcast from the bunker.

If everyone will chip in just $5, I'm sure he'll do it. Oh hell, he will probably do it anyway!

:lol:

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Muhlestein speaks in the spirit of lying. His tongue is forked and his mind is twisted with the intent to deceive and lead astray. The testimony that Mullestein has about the restored gospel is false and self induced by his own self-deception. Now he thinks to spread the Mormon disease by preaching the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and in doing so he has a lying spirit and a countenance of deceit. I can see it. I can feel it. He is a liar at heart. He lies to himself and he lies to everyone publicly.

Muhlestein is an APOSTATE Egyptologist and should be defrocked from the community in which he claims to serve. Egyptologists worldwide should combine to cut the APOSTATES Gee and Muhlestein from the community.

The Mormons need to be put in their place. This charade has gone on long enough.

They want war! They will have war and all the casualties that go with it. What a horrible price the Church will pay.

Time to lob those "grenades" at John Gee!

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:11 pm
I am not quite sure what being a Freemason and friends with Joe Swick has to do with it. I'm missing the connection.
Only that Freemasonry is founded on certain myths that are taken as having a symbolic and moral value, which nevertheless are not historically accurate. Am I mistaken in thinking that guys like you (in the past I presume) and Joe (I wish him the best) felt that Freemasonry is/was a spiritually valuable initiatic system despite the fact that its central narratives are not literally historical/ancient?
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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I’m all for learning about sacred texts with the heart and the mind, as Kerry says in his video. But is it two equal voices superimposing to make belief and worship that much more correct? Maybe, depending on the ideas. But when it comes to religion, I think not. I think there can be only one pilot with religion: mind or heart.

Heart-driven religious belief tells the mind it’s corrupt, unreliable, limited, and prone to pride. Fundamentally this is Mormonism. It may claim to embrace truth, but it also tells the mind how to think, even when that thinking contradicts external evidence. In this sense, the heart is proud and the mind submits. The person is less open to new ideas, even those which are demonstrably better.

Conversely, mind driven belief follows external evidence dispassionately. It doesn’t trust the heart to know truth a priori. Ironically, this mind and it’s subjugated heart are the more humble and open to adopting better ideas.

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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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We probably all live according to myth to some degree or another, not to say that this fact justifies Mopologists from living their myth (which I'm not sure they necessarily really do). But what our relationship with myth should be is a difficult question, at least for me.

As a non-religious example, take romantic love. We are wired to feel a certain way when with the right other person, while in a trope-like situation that we've been culturally programmed to recognize since we were very young. I find it hard to believe that two young people whose tour boat wrecks and wind up on the Blue Lagoon and experience the phenomena as designed are experiencing the same thing as say, two Ph.D. psychiatrists who hook up at work.

If you're wired for the myth but at the same time understand how the wiring works, then that must make living the myth a little bit difficult. And so I think to become a religious studies expert or other specialist who takes apart religions to see how they work, it's really hard to be a true believer.
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Gadianton wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:01 pm
We probably all live according to myth to some degree or another, not to say that this fact justifies Mopologists from living their myth (which I'm not sure they necessarily really do). But what our relationship with myth should be is a difficult question, at least for me.

As a non-religious example, take romantic love. We are wired to feel a certain way when with the right other person, while in a trope-like situation that we've been culturally programmed to recognize since we were very young. I find it hard to believe that two young people whose tour boat wrecks and wind up on the Blue Lagoon and experience the phenomena as designed are experiencing the same thing as say, two Ph.D. psychiatrists who hook up at work.

If you're wired for the myth but at the same time understand how the wiring works, then that must make living the myth a little bit difficult. And so I think to become a religious studies expert or other specialist who takes apart religions to see how they work, it's really hard to be a true believer.
Great thoughts, Dean Robbers. In the case of romantic love, the myth does map very imperfectly on the reality. The chemical intoxication of early infatuation gives way to the reality of companionship and intimacy of a less intoxicating kind. Not that people cannot experience further periods of intoxication, but the day to day demands of life make constant erotic infatuation impractical to sustain. Romantic love is thus reinterpreted in other ways to match the real experience one has in living with a partner.

A spiritual path is the same way. I remember that fad in Mormonism about invoking the Spirit in everything, wherein people sought to feel spiritual all the time and thus became insufferable fascists when it came to just getting together to socialize and have a good time. It was a fad that very much overtook CES, but it infected the Church, and I would say that it was a more or less natural consequence of correlation. Correlation is this idea that priesthood and management structure must be the same thing to achieve Zion, and the Spirit fad was about making sure that everything in every mundane situation could be seen as revelatory and Spirit-filled. Needless to say, it was and is dreary business.

The truth is, again, more mundane and mysterious. People who have devoted their lives to God have experienced a "long dark night of the soul" that lasted decades and yet they came out the other side feeling like they gained wisdom in the struggle. That's not the kind of thing we can tolerate in our world of consumer living. A product had better do what it advertises in a reasonable amount of time, or I am throwing in the towel and choosing a new one. Indeed, why not just taste a little of this and that until I am a satisfied customer? Oddly enough, I think that this as much as anything accounts for all of the apostasy we see. People view their religious lives as consumer choices and act accordingly.

I am not saying this is all good or all bad. It just is. The myth of the customer always being right or customer satisfaction is also powerful, and it does influence how people make decisions in other areas of life, be they love or spirituality.
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Re: Open Letter to Kerry Muhlestein, Mormon Egyptologist

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Holy Ghost wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:18 pm
If, as you posit, no one would care if the LDS leadership ____ the Book of Abraham, that would be a phenomena we are seeing play out on the American political stage right now, right before our own eyes: Trump-mania. Truth doesn't matter to a very large segment of people. Mormonism makes many people feel good, special, the Chosen people. They keep going back for more, for their weekly dose. Trumpism makes many Americans feel good, special, American exceptionalism, and they too, keep going back for more, wanting four more years. Others of us are flummoxed at witnessing this phenomena. How can you keep going to church, "bearing your testimony" and paying tithing? Joseph Smith was a fraud. How can you believe Trump, he lies and exaggerates? Trump is a fraud. But just like downing a pint of Ben and Jerry's at midnight while you are on a diet trying to lose 20 lbs., it's an indulgence. It makes them feel good.
As I have said before, Trump is a great modern example a Nauvoo era Joseph Smith.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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