Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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Rick Grunder
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Rick Grunder »

Another snippet from my novel 116, just for fun . . .


“Press tells me you boys are going to help him find the 116 pages. I can’t wait to read them!” No question of if, or how one pursues such a quest, or what it could cost. No stupid remarks like “Why would you want such a thing?” or “What do you think it will say?”

“I have a theory about those pages,” she continued. Preston took a sip of his water and let his wife proceed.

“Please dig in, don’t let it get cold. I think the loss of that 1828 translation may have been the best thing in the world for the Book of Mormon!”

Tibb got a spoonful down fast enough to interject the question: “Delicious, Carol! But how so?” Preston raised his eyebrows over his glass, wiped his mouth with a heavy linen napkin, and leaned forward with an inquisitive look.

“I’ve done a little writing from time to time, and the first part always has to be re-done. It’s like when you start to organize any clutter, or make a rock garden, or even compose a song.”

A woman of many talents, apparently, and boundless energy.

“Dollars to doughnuts,” suggested Carol, “the work wouldn’t have flowed so smoothly at first. There’s usually a false start. That’s what I call it before I get the hang of something. Then I have to start over again, using what I’ve just figured out. Did you know, Mr. Slyde, that after Oliver Cowdery showed up to help Joseph Smith get going on the translation that last time, they had the whole thing done in less than three months? The entire Book of Mormon, from start to finish, was written out during April, May and June of 1829.”

An exceptional woman, indeed. No, Sol had not known this. Was she quite certain?

“Oh, yes. It’s a well-known fact.”

Well-known to exceptional women, maybe. Most people don’t study history so deeply. Preston was not reacting as though he’d heard his wife’s perspective on this subject before.

“But surely, my dear, you don’t mean to say that the 116 pages were merely some rough draft that needed correcting?”

She took time to enjoy a couple spoonfuls of her afternoon concoction. Yes, it had turned out pretty well, in fact. Much better than the first time she tried to make lobster bisque!

“Nobody’s perfect, and we know Joseph had to study it out in his mind, like it says in the Doctrine and Covenants. So maybe he needed a trial run first. When the beginning manuscript was stolen, it made him start all over again, but with experience this time, on a clean slate. After that, things went fast.”

Tibb looked doubtful. “But the entire Book of Lehi was lost, and never re-translated! All we have now is an alternate version by Lehi’s son Nephi which emphasizes the spiritual aspects of that early history. If we had the more detailed secular part, it might contain proofs for the Book of Mormon - internal evidences that we could trace from the ancient Near East using modern tools and historical discoveries of recent times.”

“The world may not have been ready for those things in 1828,” offered Carol simply. “With their likely imperfections, the original 116 pages might have stood in the way of converting people. But now that the Book of Mormon is fully established with ancient records like the Dead Sea Scrolls turning up, this could be the right time for the manuscript to come forth. The Lord may have His hand in this discovery. It’s very exciting, I think.”

Apparently, they’d forgotten Sol was sitting there. The conversation left him confused and a little amazed. Or was this a performance for his benefit? Did they really imagine he took their golden tablets seriously? This ancient Lehi was evidently a real person in their minds, like Moses, or David or Solomon.


https://www.virginlamb.com
“I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity.”
― Cicero, De Oratore - Book III

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Kishkumen
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Kishkumen »

Thanks, Rick! This is wonderful stuff! Nicely done and it makes for very entertaining reading.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

kairos
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

any info anywhere that the plates, real or fake were numbered- hebrew/reformed egyptian/arabic/?

did Joseph Smith ever in his list of caractors indicate number(s) versus letters? i know some of the work DV has done point to modified arabic numbers turned in to letters or something like that from the "anthon or other caractors" lists.

comments?
thanx
k

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GR33N
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by GR33N »

Yes, they matter. If you truly understand the lost 116 pages story and the actual translation process. Then the events are very faith promoting and testimony building.
Then saith He to Thomas... be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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GR33N wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:00 pm
Yes, they matter. If you truly understand the lost 116 pages story and the actual translation process. Then the events are very faith promoting and testimony building.
I don't know if you meant this, but your argument depends on first following your believing interpretation of the lost 116 pgs and the translation process. I've looked at the data and facts and it looks fraudulent to me. First, conveniently, Joseph Smith is commanded not to show the plates to anyone and then after being accused of making it up, he claims God tells him that he can have a ceremony where three selected witnesses are allowed to supposedly see the plates. At this point in the story, why can't the world at large see the plates? Why aren't they on display in Salt Lake City today? Why haven't experts been allowed to verify the plates and the supposed translation? Why the hokus pokus? Looks like street magic to me.

Then, we turn to the lost 116 pages. A person not committing fraud would have simply retranslated the pages and would not have made up a story of how the pages would be altered by the devil, etc. It would have been incredibly easy for anyone to see where the handwritten 116 page document was altered, especially if that person had God on his side. However, we get the tale concocted by Joseph Smith that he can't retranslate because God forbids it conveniently.

Finally, chuckle chuckle, somehow the rock in the hat show is faith promoting? Joseph Smith looked on a rock in a hat and supposedly got a translation from plates that were supposedly hidden in the woods. This is faith promoting? No, no it isn't and the church should move away from the story as fast as it can.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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huckelberry
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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GR33N wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:00 pm
Yes, they matter. If you truly understand the lost 116 pages story and the actual translation process. Then the events are very faith promoting and testimony building.
Gr33n, Different people seem to have different understandings of the subject. You should take the time to explain a true understanding of the 116 pages story if you find that understanding helpful. That would be the normal next step in conversation.

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huckelberry
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by huckelberry »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:24 am


Finally, chuckle chuckle, somehow the rock in the hat show is faith promoting? Joseph Smith looked on a rock in a hat and supposedly got a translation from plates that were supposedly hidden in the woods. This is faith promoting? No, no it isn't and the church should move away from the story as fast as it can.
Dr, Exiled,
Just for the sake of rethinking a subject, I find myself puzzled by peoples concern about the hat. How else was he to translate (if there was a translation)? He was clueless about the language so staring at the plates would be of no use at all. Perhaps he could have stared at the ceiling? Would that be an improvement over the hat affair?

On the related subject, I was pushed by Rick's post to think perhaps the lost portion has never turned up because Joseph Smith destroyed that first draft. Otherwise it is odd that they have not been found.

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Dr Exiled »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:42 am
Dr Exiled wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:24 am


Finally, chuckle chuckle, somehow the rock in the hat show is faith promoting? Joseph Smith looked on a rock in a hat and supposedly got a translation from plates that were supposedly hidden in the woods. This is faith promoting? No, no it isn't and the church should move away from the story as fast as it can.
Dr, Exiled,
Just for the sake of rethinking a subject, I find myself puzzled by peoples concern about the hat. How else was he to translate (if there was a translation)? He was clueless about the language so staring at the plates would be of no use at all. Perhaps he could have stared at the ceiling? Would that be an improvement over the hat affair?

On the related subject, I was pushed by Rick's post to think perhaps the lost portion has never turned up because Joseph Smith destroyed that first draft. Otherwise it is odd that they have not been found.
I'm not concerned with the hat other than it was a prop for Joseph's magic show. He could have used a crystal ball or something else. But, he was used to using a rock and a hat and he got a bad rep for using it to look for non-existent treasure. So, he probably wanted to show the world that the rock and hat could do something good.

As far as the translation process itself, I guess take a look at the Book of Moses and how that supposedly came to being or look at the D&C. Why have to translate a record to begin with when God could have simply dictated the book to Joseph Smith in the first place? It seems to me if I were God and had an important communication I wanted to make to the world in the form of the book of Mormon, or bible, etc., I would make damn sure that what I said was correctly put down on paper. I wouldn't allow all the in between steps where miscommunication could happen. Better still, if I were God, I would periodically make an appearance and tell the world directly what I wanted and bypass the priest class, commanding that they do something else for their money.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Fence Sitter
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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huckelberry wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:42 am

Dr, Exiled,
Just for the sake of rethinking a subject, I find myself puzzled by peoples concern about the hat. How else was he to translate (if there was a translation)? He was clueless about the language so staring at the plates would be of no use at all. Perhaps he could have stared at the ceiling? Would that be an improvement over the hat affair?
The translation narrative the church is still trying to sell in some parts, is one where Smith is shown wearing a set of special spectacles in which the seer stones are set as lenses, looking down thoughtfully, studying the actual plates. The institution of the church itself is still uncomfortable with the image of Smith's face burred in an old felt hat with no plates in sight and rightly so. What exactly is the point of preserving the plates and giving them to Smith if they are not even used in the translation process?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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huckelberry wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:29 am
GR33N wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:00 pm
Yes, they matter. If you truly understand the lost 116 pages story and the actual translation process. Then the events are very faith promoting and testimony building.
Gr33n, Different people seem to have different understandings of the subject. You should take the time to explain a true understanding of the 116 pages story if you find that understanding helpful. That would be the normal next step in conversation.
Having sat through innumerable fast and testimony meetings, there is no event that cannot be construed as faith promoting if one is truly converted.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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