Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

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kairos
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Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

Joseph Smith said "all is lost" when MH showed up without the "bacon"(those translated 116 pages ) of the Book of Mormon.

Help me out here- Joseph Smith still had access to the plates of Lehi? and his magic seer stone and the urim and thummin so why did not OC tell Joseph to get back to work and "retranslate" the 116 pages? He had everything he needed IF he was truly translating by the power of God. But no he claimed he would use the plates of Nephi to redevelop the front end of the Book of Mormon.

So the question in my mind did Brodie or Vogel or Bushman or any of the mopologists give some reasoned rationale why losing the 116 pages would have Joseph scream "all is lost". we know he could not tell a "A" from "Z' from those figures on the plates so he really was up "s*it" creek until he came up with the nephi plates.

thoughts?

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huckelberry
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by huckelberry »

For Brodie the reason would be simple. He had no means to recreate them. Any attempt would be approximate and would show Josephs limitations.

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Shulem
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Shulem »

Smith loaned the original to Harris. He did not have a copy - -there was no backup. When he gave Harris the manuscript he gave him all he had on the Book of Mormon. There wasn't any way to reproduce what was on the sole manuscript. Smith had to come up with an excuse and start from scratch.

kairos
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

Let me clarify.

A TBM or historian like Bushman believes Joseph Smith had the plates dug up from Cumorah. Would not aTBM think "he didn't lose the plates only the 116 pages" so the TBM would say-"should be no big deal-Joseph could have redone the 116 pages even if they were off a little. He really didn't need to come up with second stack of plates to rework the front end of the Book of Mormon.

If you believe Joseph Smith had no plates or fake plates, he was in deep doodoo until he concocted the scheme of the second set of plates.

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huckelberry
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by huckelberry »

Kairos, reaching deep into my memory I believe i find that Joseph Smiths explanation was that he believed people would alter the version and then claim he could not reproduce it. He stated that he was inspired to not to play that game. The church view would be that and that it proceeded by Gods instruction who had prepared for the problem from the beginning.

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Shulem
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Shulem »

It was a test from God who proves the faithful in all things.

I know the Church is trooo.

Amen

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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Meadowchik »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:57 am
Kairos, reaching deep into my memory I believe i find that Joseph Smiths explanation was that he believed people would alter the version and then claim he could not reproduce it. He stated that he was inspired to not to play that game. The church view would be that and that it proceeded by Gods instruction who had prepared for the problem from the beginning.
This is the answer from Joseph Smith's account of the crisis as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants.

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Physics Guy
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Physics Guy »

It's obvious that Smith had thought a lot about how he would be discredited when his second version of the missing pages didn't match the originals. He had been making a living from deception for a while at that point, though, so it occurred to him pretty quickly that he could always claim that it was the other guys who had altered the originals.

Then the wiser and older con artist of his imagination counseled him even better: just don't get into that pissing match. Forget the missing pages and start over. A lot of writers would be happy to do a restart after a hundred pages or so, getting rid of stuff that's proving awkward and working in the great new ideas that have come in the meantime. The notion that the other guys could have fudged the originals to discredit Smith becomes the excuse for avoiding the challenge.

Smith didn't just give this excuse for himself, though. He put it into the mouth of God.
In Doctrine and Covenants 10:30-32, God supposedly wrote:Behold, I say unto you, that you shall not translate again those words which have gone forth out of your hands ... For, behold, if you should bring forth the same words they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. And, behold, they will publish this ...
I'm surprised Mormons don't find it unsettling how much God sounds like that older and wiser con artist here. It's even worse that God is actually really long-winded about this, saying the same things over and over through all of D&C 10 like a shyster trying to win over a skeptical mark with sheer persistence.

And it's quite a come-down for God. "Behold, they have stolen the sacred records from my chosen prophet!" The God of Smith's scriptures would have followed up that sentence with something like, "Now therefore I shall smite them from the Earth!" Instead it's, "Now, therefore, I'm going to let them keep the only copy of those records and think about what they've done until they apologize." Yesterday was the Day of Wrath, today is Passive Aggression.

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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

I still can't understand how Bushman, a believer that Joseph Smith had god given plates, would think Joseph Smith 's way out of the situation was to go to a different set of plates rather than Joseph Smith using the same ones he used to get the 116 pages-why go to another set of plates unless you made up the 116 pages w/o any plates. Surely Bushman should try to explain(maybe he has) why the lehi plates could not be used to get the job done. Isn't it like me printing a copy of my term paper giving it to my prof, then prof says he inadvertently tossed it. no big deal - i just print another copy. now if the term paper was the one and only handwritten original i would start over with my notes/golden plates and come pretty close to the original paper.

why have not the mopologists tried to explain this?

help me out here1

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Physics Guy
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Physics Guy »

I don't really know. I myself can't see any good explanation; to me this is a damning tell. But Doctrine and Covenants is also part of Mormon Scripture, modern revelations directly from God to the Prophet, so faithful Mormons may simply have their hands tied in this case. God commanded Smith not to retranslate the missing pages, for the reasons given in D&C 10. The apologists can't start explaining that what God said wasn't the real reason. The party line has been set and all they can do is follow it.

I mean, if you're willing admit that Smith wasn't just obeying the command of God given in D&C 10, because Smith himself just made up D&C 10, then there's hardly any reason left to justify Smith's behavior over the missing pages.

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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Brackite »

A lot has been writing about the lost 116 Pages. I am still wondering if I should get Don Bradley's Lost 116 Pages book.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-116-Pages-R ... 158958760X
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by malkie »

Brackite wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:29 am
A lot has been writing about the lost 116 Pages. I am still wondering if I should get Don Bradley's Lost 116 Pages book.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-116-Pages-R ... 158958760X
You know that Don's book starts on page 117, right? :lol:
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Rick Grunder »

The phone rang.

“Hello?”

“Solomon? This is Preston. Did you get my fax?”

“Bright and clear. I just finished reading it. I take it that the manuscript which is discussed there is the thing you’re looking for?”

“Its . . . loss has been regretted for a very long time.” Young spoke tentatively. “The young Prophet learned a hard lesson when he let those pages go, especially when the Lord forbade him to fall into the trap of translating the stolen scripture a second time.”

Sol had met his share of odd-balls. When he first started buying and selling rare books, he tolerated every customer who came his way. But after countless boring conversations over the years, and many lost efforts, he learned to offend certain people up front, and be rid of them quickly. Here was such a situation now. He would speak his mind politely, but without equivocating.

“Even allowing for the eccentricities of religion,” Sol began, “I have to confess, Preston, that portions of what you have sent me are troublesome, to say the least.”

“I know what you mean,” Young replied. “Who actually stole the manuscript, for instance, and who had custody of it at the time when the Lord . . .”

Young wasn’t getting the point.

“Obviously,” Sol cut in, “you realize that your belief system is your own, and it forms no part of mine. I’m forced to ask logical questions, like whether Joseph Smith was even capable of dictating 116 pages a second time, to match his original missing version. The excuse he gives in his ‘revelation’ for not re-translating the words makes no sense at all, at least not to me, and this forces questions about other aspects of the story as well.”

That should dispose of Young quickly, but collectors can be obstinate, and they are often obsessed. Young’s unruffled response came as a simple question:

“Even if you don’t accept Joseph Smith’s story, Solomon, why would that matter in our simple business transaction?”

Cool. Very cool and determined.

“Please, just call me ‘Sol.’ Clearly, Preston, you do believe in this, but I’d hate to see you taken advantage of by some unscrupulous person. Joseph Smith claimed that those stolen pages contained part of the ancient Book of Mormon. Yet the Lord wouldn’t let him re-dictate that part, because thieves were still holding the manuscript?”

“Yes, exactly,” agreed Young, “The Book of Lehi.”

Sol had been reading the name wrong, apparently. Young pronounced it “LEE-high” like the Lehigh River in Pennsylvania.

“In fact,” persisted Young enthusiastically, “the Lord knew in ancient times that this theft would take place. It was foreseen indirectly by a prophet who lived in the fourth century A.D.”

“Where . . . was this premonition recorded?” In the back of his head, Sol could hear music rising from “The Twilight Zone.”

“In the Book of Mormon!”

Logical questions weren’t going to work with this man who seemed prepared to pontificate his way out of any dilemma. But Sol could resort to authority as well . . .

“I have to tell you, Preston, that beyond the obvious self-substantiating character of your argument, the story has unmistakable problems. Let me confine myself to an area in which I have some expertise. Smith’s ‘revelation’ warns that if he re-dictates the missing material, the people who stole his first manuscript will produce it - with their alterations - as an unfavorable comparison to his second attempt. Is that right, so far?”

“Why yes!” Young sounded jubilant. “I must say, Sol, you phrase it almost more concisely than the Lord himself!”

Sol kept his composure, and continued . . .

“But this argument bears no comparison to the reality of the situation, Preston. I’ve worked with papers from that period for more than twenty-five years. Thousands of them. There’s no way anyone could have altered your Book of Lehi substantially without the changes being obvious. You can’t erase the ink they used without leaving a serious blemish in the paper. Nor could anyone insert text afterward. People wrote deliberately, and used every precious inch available. They left no room for words that would be perfectly evident as later additions. It doesn’t take an expert to see when something has been changed or added to an old manuscript.”

Young thought for a moment, and continued unflappable: “They could have re-written the whole thing on fresh paper, using Joseph’s translation as a basis for their altered text.”

“In which case,” Sol persisted, “leaving aside the pesky problem of handwriting, they would naturally have wanted to destroy the true original immediately afterward, in order to protect themselves from discovery and arrest, thus leaving nothing for me to locate for you in modern times.”

“But they didn’t,” Young answered, strangely unaffected. “No re-translation was done, so no altered version was put forth. Whoever stole the 116 pages in 1828 would have kept them, since the Lord revealed to the Prophet that the thieves had his original manuscript, with clear intention to use it against the Church.”

What church? Young was erecting new goalposts now, and this conversation was getting tiresome.

“But if a second dictation was never attempted,” Sol concluded, “then, once the Book of Mormon was published without the missing portion, what would have been a thief’s purpose in preserving the stolen manuscript? It could have served as evidence to convict the conspirators of theft.”

“Ah, but here we come full circle to the real point at hand,” Young exulted softly. His voice became charged with something strange, and he had to pause for air before he could finish . . .

“As you must know by now, Solomon, . . . Sol . . . I am in possession of confidential information that the 116 pages have been found. And now that we’ve spoken, I’m sure we have much more to share.”

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Dr Exiled »

Rick,

Too bad your dialogue won't be a part of the Witnesses film being made by DCP and Co. It would be a great first scene. After, the Young character could then launch into his account of what must have happened with the translation and the witnesses, etc. Maybe even Deer Jesus could be worked in somewhere ...

https://m.imgur.com/VSJF2

Joseph, my son, even though you lost the 116 pgs, we still have a work for you to do in the forest .....
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

kairos
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

Anyone know whether Don B. addressed why Joseph Smith did not just go to the Lehi plates and get another "copy" of the 116 pages- by the gift and power of God , i am sure God could get a perfect replication of the lost material?

by the way do we know whether J or the scribes were actually marking pages 110..111 112 ..116 as part of the plan or did they put numbers on pages redone or at the mosiah restart? are the printer's copy pages numbered?

so many questions so few good answers!

k

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Holy Ghost
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Holy Ghost »

The 116 pages do matter. Had God been behind their creation, the All Knowing could have easily reproduced them, grammar mistakes and misspellings and all. However, Joseph Smith needed an excuse for Martin Harris. Harris might, after all, have noticed that Joseph Smith (mere mortal that is not All Knowing) did it differently second time around. Smith was good at story telling, so his mother tells in her book. Smith concocted the idea to tell Harris that God forbade Smith from retranslating, for fear even the slightest difference would be pointed to by those in possession of the original 116, to point out Smith wasn't getting it from God. (All-knowing God should have known that no one had possession of the lost pages or if they did, those 116 pages would have never surfaced, and so the original source plates could have been used for the re-dictation without fear of the consequence that Smith concocted.)

The 116 pages matter because the whole episode reveals the lengths to which Smith would make up stories to cover his tracks. Had Harris detected the difference and lost confidence in Smith, Smith's game would have been over. Conveniently for Smith then, All-knowing God had the early Nephites hundredss of years beforehand prepare two versions on different parts of the plates, or so Smith's explanation to Harris goes. As SNL's Church Lady might observe, "Isn't that Interesting!"

Trey Parker openly busted Smith and the LDS narrative on this years ago in the South Park episode. The apologists and LDS church have been reeling backwards on this ever since.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

kairos
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

Anyone have a link to the south park episode cite by the HG?

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kairos
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by kairos »

bump

Brackite
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Brackite »

I recently purchased Don's Lost 116 Pages book. There is a YouTube video of Don about those lost 116 pages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmlIAyIGW4
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter

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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by Roger »

One thing that often gets overlooked in all this: God knew that evil men had stolen the manuscript, and he even knew it would happen hundreds of years before it did, but, curiously, God did not know - or at least wasn't telling - exactly where those evil men were hiding or where they had hid the manuscript. Imagine how much it would have boosted Joseph Smith's credibility if God had decided to let him in on that little secret. I suspect God was as much in the dark as Joseph was.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.

deacon blues
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Re: Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

Post by deacon blues »

Joseph's reaction to the loss of the 116 pages shows a couple of things in my opinion. 1- Joseph believed that a 'tight' translation was crucial to the veracity of the Book of Mormon. His panic shows he believed if he couldn't reproduce the manuscript exactly, th3e whole project would be ruined. 2- He seems to have regarded God as very unforgiving. His "All is lost!" statement indicates either he didn't believe 'God' could fix the problem, or that God would would not forgive Joseph for the 'mistake' of allowing Martin Harris to take the pages. Of course, if Joseph believed God had nothing to do with the translation, his panicked reaction would also make sense.

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