Book of Mormon names

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Gadianton
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Book of Mormon names

Post by Gadianton »

Question for Symmachus (all are welcome to give their take of course, but you know how it is...):

During the "Guesser" fiasco, I briefly explored Book of Mormon names as compared to Mayan names, and I was shocked at how the apologists would dare to make connections. It was plain as day that Book of Mormon names and Mayan names have nothing to do with each other, but here and there over a large number of names, a couple of oddities kinda sorta match up.

To me, it feels like names from the documents Joseph Smith uncovers have a familiar pattern to them. Is there anything striking to you about how book of Mormon names are constructed? Do you think after seeing a certain sample of names Joseph Smith came up with, that a person could anticipate with reasonable accuracy, other names Joseph Smith adopted or invented vs. ones that he didn't?
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Kishkumen
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Kishkumen »

The closest match I have seen for naming in the Book of Mormon is found in the Zeno Narrative, where there appears a Prince Zichmni who rules over a giant thalassocracy in the northwest Atlantic. The Zeno Narrative was a 16th century forgery about a 14th-century discovery of the New World by two Venetian brothers before Genoese Columbus.
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iwanttotalk
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by iwanttotalk »

Have you ever watched the PBS documentary “cracking the mayan code”?

Basically they figure out how to “read” mayan heiroglyphs.

But the language is less evolved than egyptian heiroglyphs. Very little phonetic sound and the names of the recorded kings were based on meaning. They werent just strings of syllables that sound good put together.

I may be misremembering but the names were like “blue feathered Maccah plum”

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Rick Grunder
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Rick Grunder »

The wildly popular Ossian forgeries of James Macpherson in the 1700s fooled everyone from Goethe to Thoreau, and exerted literary influence in Europe and America. Among names concocted or adapted for this faux-Celtic lore were these Mormon-sonorous examples:

Carmora
Maronna
Morven
Nemi
Standard of Morven
Sword of Luno
Temora

"Comala" is one of the books in the Poems of Ossian in which, seated upon a hill, Comala waits with the daughters of Morni for the outcome of the battle between Fingal, king of Morven, and Caracul. Looking over a longer list of names in this fabrication, one witnesses a gradient of the sort of "clang" which Theodore A. Schroeder attributed in 1919 to Joseph Smith in "Authorship of the Book of Mormon," The American Journal of Psychology 30:1 [January 1919], pp. 66-72).

Such a suggestion is inevitably controversial. To the person who feels offended by any such accusation against Joseph Smith, no word match with a Book of Mormon name can sound close enough to be convincing, even if it is identical. Prophetic circumstances and ancient parallels can always be found in order to preclude creative human invention by Smith in 1829. For the casual critic, on the other hand, an equally strong myopia may contaminate judicious restraint until even the most facile pairing of words will suffice, and any parallel will sound good enough for the purpose.

For further detail on Macpherson, see Mormon Parallels, pp. 863-85.

For Walker's Dictionary, filled with Mormon-sounding names, see the following:
http://www.rickgrunder.com/parallels/mp453.pdf
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Gadianton
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Gadianton »

Thanks Rev, and Rick, these are some fun sources. From the Rev's, the Z's were a dead hit, but I had trouble finding other slam-dunks

'Zeni', 'Zeno', 'Zichmni', 'Zichnmi'

From Rick,

'Morn', 'Morna', 'Morni', Maronnan'

LOL.

Here's something I believe is true about book of Mormon names. They are simple. agree / disagree?

I suppose I'm less interested in what document Joseph Smith might have had his hands on, the Bible is the most obvious hit. I think he had a certain base stock of sounds, and then just kinda put the sounds together in new ways. For instance: Mahonri Moriancumr. As a child that was quite a mouthful, but it's really simple, isn't it? It's like: nephimor kishgadum. easy to pronounce. Its just a string of easy names put together to be a little longer.

From the Rev's document:

Ambasciadori
Borgefjordus
Hvalsoefjordense
Fossasund

What are the most complex names in the Book of Mormon?
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Dr Exiled »

My fav since there were the Nahom follies a few years ago is the Biblical prophet Nahum that definitely, I say I mean most definitely, did not inspire "Nahom," because ..... because .... well .... just ask the mopologists and they will tell you some reason why the obvious comparison isn't valid.
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moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by moksha »

If there was no ancient prophecy involved then how do we possibly explain all those glaring bullseyes found in Vern Holley maps. For the ancient Nephites to have such foreknowledge of the place names in the Great Lakes region and environs, they must have been in direct contact with the EModE Celestial group which had a 19th Century map of both that area and the Indian Ocean.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Dr Moore »

I’m pretty sure Joseph Smith studied enough to eyeball Hebrew letters and appreciated how the vowel system allowed for all kinds of word variations while remaining true to the basic hebrew root word.

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Physics Guy
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Physics Guy »

Even if he hadn't studied Hebrew systematically at that point he may have encountered some Hebrew words quoted in books or sermons.

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Kishkumen
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:39 am
I’m pretty sure Joseph Smith studied enough to eyeball Hebrew letters and appreciated how the vowel system allowed for all kinds of word variations while remaining true to the basic hebrew root word.
Back in the time of the translation of the Book of Mormon?
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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

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Symmachus
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Re: Book of Mormon names

Post by Symmachus »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:52 pm
To me, it feels like names from the documents Joseph Smith uncovers have a familiar pattern to them. Is there anything striking to you about how book of Mormon names are constructed? Do you think after seeing a certain sample of names Joseph Smith came up with, that a person could anticipate with reasonable accuracy, other names Joseph Smith adopted or invented vs. ones that he didn't?
You are on to something here. I've always thought the exercise of identifying names to be a solution in search of a problem. I suppose I understand why apologists do it; but if you are not a believer in a historical Book of Mormon, then obviously they were made up or borrowed. It is very easy to find the borrowed names. And it is not hard to understand the basic idea behind the made-up ones, namely that it have a Biblical resonance. So what does Biblical resonance mean? That will vary from speaker to speaker, so that there will be broad agreement of "biblicalness" on names that sound or appear close to Biblical names (e.g. Aaron is obviously biblical; Amalickiah sounds like Amalek, and there are a lot of names in the Bible ending in -iah). But there will be disagreement on the margins. The Book of Mormon names that don't have obvious Biblical analogs are often out there on the margins: Zeniff and Cezoram, for example, or Nephite words like Rameumptom and Irreantum and Senine. People who read a lot of Bible might not recognize those as Biblical-ish. Understandably, that is where the apologists pan for gold.

The fake-Greek names in the Book of Mormon like Lachoneus are interesting. I'll bet only people who know Greek can recognize it as fake because it parades the hallmarks of Greekish-sounding names: ending in -us (Latinized for -os) and containing a -ch- pronounced as "k" sound. Use those and you can make up a lot of fake-Greek names pretty quickly. Write them up in a holy book and you'll get apologists for that book in 100 years finding all kinds of connections to actually attested ancient Greek names, thus demonstrating the historicity and ultimately the divinity of your holy book.
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