Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

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aussieguy55
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Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by aussieguy55 »

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... f-abraham/

Should make an interesting debate. As I have meager knowledge anyone with more care to critique?
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

I'm in a real mood right now.

John Gee's ____ ass needs to be kicked so hard he will never get up.

You're ass is mine, Gee. I'm going to roll you over and do you!

YOU ____ liar!

JOHN GEE is a ____ liar!

:evil:

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Lemmie »

From reddit, username ImTheMarmotKing:

Here, Mormon Apologetic Egyptologist John Gee asserts that four of these Gods are "attested anciently." He also states the "odds of Joseph Smith guessing the names correctly is astronomical." Specifically, he associates these four Gods as:

Elkenah

Gee says this is likely a transliteration of the Hebrew El-qoneh (ʾl qnh), "the god who creates." He associates this with the Hittite god Elkunirša

Libnah

Gee says this could be from "a specific set of (Ugartic) deities called the 'gods of Labana'"

Mahmackrah

Gee provides two different possible Gods here. First, an obscure "god of Beth-Shean" which he provides several possible spellings for, including, Mekal, Mkr, m'qwrwiw. Second, a place called Mammigira. To me, the fact that Gee can arrive at multiple possible unique attestations argues against the "astronomical odds" since, by his own admission, some of his attestations must be coincindental. I think the fact that place-names can be used in place of Gods, and that they don't even have to be particularly close phonetically, also argues against his "astronomical odds."

Korash

This he claims is the Hittite god Kurša, which he then reveals is not actually a deity but a hunting bag, which he claims "functions as the symbol of a deity and is therefore treated as a god." He once again provides an alternate association, undercutting his own point again, with the Hittite deity Zitḫariya. So apparently hunting bags are on the table as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... n/fye9v32/
Well. That’s a little underwhelming.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

Lemmie wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:52 pm
Well. That’s a little underwhelming.
Right. Smith had no idea what he was dealing with. It was right there in front of his face and he didn't even know it!

:twisted:

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Fingers crossed!

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by consiglieri »

Hebrew? Hittite? Mesopotamian? Ugaritic?

It's a good thing there are so many language pools in which to go fishing.

Gee writes some may see this information as "underwhelming."

I agree.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Dr Moore »

All is fair since by 1842, Smith had identified Mor+Mon comprising “More Good” in an english egyptian contraction. God exists in a timeless plane. Who are we to argue with these translations?

Also, ROFL.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Dr Exiled »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:52 pm
Well. That’s a little underwhelming.
Right. Smith had no idea what he was dealing with. It was right there in front of his face and he didn't even know it!

:twisted:

Image

Hoping Shades can't moderate.

Fingers crossed!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :biggrin: :biggrin: You made my day with that picture when I first checked out your new site.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:34 pm
All is fair since by 1842, Smith had identified Mor+Mon comprising “More Good” in an english egyptian contraction. God exists in a timeless plane. Who are we to argue with these translations?

Also, ROFL.
Oh don't get me started.

Min and More = huge penis.

It's right there in Facsimile No. 2.

Smith said so.

:lol:

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:41 pm
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :biggrin: :biggrin: You made my day with that picture when I first checked out your new site.
:lol:

And, I have something special planned for Holy Min as he sits upon his throne!

Holy, holy, holy! It's coming soon. Facsimile No. 2 is the bomb! Salt Lake Temple -- look out, it's coming.

:lol:

Hey, all you Mormons, look at your Heavenly Father as he sits upon his throne with a boner in his hand.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by moksha »

The four Idolatrous Gods versus the canopic jars! Gee could get into a real visceral argument with this one.

Will such writings make it harder for Mormons to show their face at academic conferences for Egyptology?
Last edited by moksha on Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:58 pm
The four Idolatrous Gods versus the canopic jars! Gee could get into a real visceral argument with this one.
It's the only thing Gee has going for him.

But rest assured, Shulem can kick his ass!

You know that, don't you?

:wink:

Shulem

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:00 pm
It's the only thing Gee has going for him.

But rest assured, Shulem can kick his ass!

You know that, don't you?

:wink:

Shulem
You show him we don't need no stinking Idolatrous Gods around here! Kick his butt back to Egyptology 101!!!
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:04 pm
You show him we don't need no stinking Idolatrous Gods around here! Kick his butt back to Egyptology 101!!!
:wink:

I'm John Gee's worst enemy. Never fear. I've got it handled.

Step aside, Ritner. This is an in house job that needs be done.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by aussieguy55 »

Strange response to paper
Kyler Rasmussen on July 17, 2020 at 4:26 pm said:
Thanks for this Dr. Gee. Always refreshing to see people actually work through the math when going through this evidence.

That said, I’m not sure you’re entirely on the mark. You seem to be treating it as if the Book of Abraham referenced a single god with a name 10 syllables long. The probability of getting all four names right would work out a bit differently.

Elkenah = 3 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 53230 = .00001879

Mamackrah = 3 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 53230 = .00001879

Libnah = 2 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 110 = .009

Korash = 2 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 110 = .009

The overall probability would multiply those four together, resulting in a probability of p = 2.8 x 10^-14. Still astronomically small, but still billions of times more likely than your estimate would suggest.

I also wonder if there really are 484 different syllable combinations. It’d be interesting to run through the list of 2130 gods and see how many syllables are represented in that set.

Continue the excellent work!
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by moksha »

Kyler Ray Rasmussen • 17 hours ago
I had some thoughts on Dr. Gee's math that I posted in the comments. He's at least 8 or so orders of magnitude too high on his odds estimate, and deeper linguistic analysis could drive it down further. Still unlikely, but it's not a statistical silver bullet on its own.

Moksha Kyler Ray Rasmussen • 13 hours ago
What are the odds on idolatrous canopic jars?

Kyler Ray Rasmussen Moksha • 13 hours ago • edited
Yuuuuuuuge, to the power of orange.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Physics Guy »

If any scholars of ancient languages want to rack their brains for god-related things whose names might have shared some consonants with the syllables I provide, I'd be willing to make up some names that sound kind of ancient-Egyptian-godlike to me. You'll contribute your linguistic expertise to the project, while I'll bring enough ignorance of ancient Middle-Eastern religions and languages that I definitely could not have known of the tenuous connections you find. We'll be a great research team.

Even though I'll be the one with the miraculous guessing powers, I'll generously let you be first authors on the paper. I'm a nice guy that way. I try not to let my magic powers go to my head.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Dr Exiled »

Gee's a hack and I blame his priesthood leaders in Salt Lake City for creating this hack monster and those like him.

Funny thing is that these church leaders would throw him under the bus, so quickly, if the Fund and tithing were at stake, that we would need some sort of high powered detector to perceive how fast it was.

Gee should be learning from Dr. Hauglid instead of looking for ways to undermine him.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

Like Olishem, and as Hauglid has so accurately described, Egyptological "bulls eyes" like this are, indeed, "thin gruel."
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Dr Moore »

Finally completed reading Gee’s “astronomical odds” article this weekend.

What an incredibly brilliant assemblage of case studies in the sharpshooter fallacy.

The fluff around his key arguments gives an appearance of the thesis being well researched. Gee must know this because he admits the reader will see his work as a “meagre amount of information” ... but then Gee does the last thing one might expect in an exploratory paper by taking his “meagre” information all the way to 11 by performing an astronomical odds manipulation a la Greatest Guesser.

His paper has already stretched every possible connection by adding and removing syllables, including all nouns across multiple languages, and allowed for untold variants within syllables he kept.

Who is he kidding, with Gee holding up the targets, Joseph’s odds are 1 in 1 of making impossible bulls eyes.
Gee wrote: The odds of Joseph Smith guessing the names correctly is astronomical.
Challenge accepted.

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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:43 pm
Strange response to paper
Kyler Rasmussen on July 17, 2020 at 4:26 pm said:
Thanks for this Dr. Gee. Always refreshing to see people actually work through the math when going through this evidence.

That said, I’m not sure you’re entirely on the mark. You seem to be treating it as if the Book of Abraham referenced a single god with a name 10 syllables long. The probability of getting all four names right would work out a bit differently.

Elkenah = 3 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 53230 = .00001879

Mamackrah = 3 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 53230 = .00001879

Libnah = 2 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 110 = .009

Korash = 2 syllables
p = 1 in (484*484)/2130
p = 1 in 110 = .009

The overall probability would multiply those four together, resulting in a probability of p = 2.8 x 10^-14. Still astronomically small, but still billions of times more likely than your estimate would suggest.

I also wonder if there really are 484 different syllable combinations. It’d be interesting to run through the list of 2130 gods and see how many syllables are represented in that set.

Continue the excellent work!
They're looking at the wrong set of odds. The actual question is "what are the odds that, after the fact, Gee can draw some tenuous connection between the four "egyptian" gods and something in the ancient middle east.
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Re: Gee's paper on Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham

Post by Dr Moore »

More likely for two of them, but Gee doesn't consider acknowledging in his paper:

* Libnah was borrowed from the Old Testament.
* Elkenah was borrowed from the Old Testament name Elkanah

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