Are you deferential to Mormon views?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost
Posts: 579
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by Holy Ghost »

I am supposing that most reading (and responding to) this post are ex-Mormon.

In my experience, most of those that have stopped believing in and attending the Mormon church because of lifestyle differences left before age 25 years. After that, it seems a significant number have stopped being Mormon because of the wreckage of Mormon intolerance on a family member or close friend. Most that have stopped being Mormon after age 25 have, in my experience and observation, because they discovered or realized it "does not add up." A significant portion of them feel betrayed by the Mormon church having so clearly covered up its messy origin history (1820-1877).

I am surprised at how many TBMs react to someone leaving at whatever age by insinuating it must have been in order to live a sinful life. This assumption by TBMs is quite insulting to the one who stopped believing.

For those that have left because 'it doesn't add up' but have been accused of stopping belief and attendance because they have wanted to sin, has your reaction to that been:

1) lay out in detail the problems (perhaps with internet citations), why the church doesn't add up?

2) very generically describe the topic (e.g., "church history doesn't work for me any longer")?

3) ignore those TBM innuendoes, no matter how often repeated?

4) Other--please elaborate.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate, Physics

User avatar
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 6432
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by Philo Sofee »

If and when they accuse me of wanting to live a life of sin I say sure did! Just agree with them and leave. There is no helping the brainwashed, braindead within Mormonism. There is no need to even bother to try. That is the meaning of losing faith. It becomes irrelevant what reasons they come up with to try and intimidate, coerce or guilt you with. It does not matter and does not bother me. I lost faith. There is no guilt over it. There is nothing one if guilty of. Losing faith when it really happens for real takes away any desire to justify it to anyone.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."

User avatar
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by huckelberry »

No body has asked me why I left the church. If asked I might answer too few Indians in the Book Of Mormon. I do not hear that much discussed. Perhaps it is too obvious a problem'

That really was at the forefront of my worries but I realize there was a whole host of other things lurking in my mind. If I imagine being asked I see it is not impossible just to slip into a simplifying answer like I thought perhaps there were other things in life to learn about.

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by honorentheos »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:54 pm
For those that have left because 'it doesn't add up' but have been accused of stopping belief and attendance because they have wanted to sin, has your reaction to that been:

1) lay out in detail the problems (perhaps with internet citations), why the church doesn't add up?

2) very generically describe the topic (e.g., "church history doesn't work for me any longer")?

3) ignore those TBM innuendoes, no matter how often repeated?

4) Other--please elaborate.
It's been a while since I've been asked. When it was more common, I'd say because I found out the church wasn't what it claimed to be. Then it was up to whomever asked what direction it went from there. A surprising number were ok letting that be the end of the conversation. The few who went further usually suggested they were familiar with the issues and asked which ones were the ones that had bothered me. I'd usually turn that back around and let them give an example of something they knew about, we'd discuss it, and then it would drop.

It came up only once with my parents, and it took a passive-aggressive form. I don't recall the exact comment but I recall my reply was roughly, "I don't feel obligated to take moral lessons from a guy who ____ other men's wives behind their husbands backs." After a bit of silence I said something along the lines of being perfectly happy not to force my views on others if they would do the same in return. That seemed to settle it.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by honorentheos »

I went to find an example from a Facebook conversation and was surprised it was as long ago as it was. Let's say a while. But here's an example straight from Facebook:
Friend IRL, on Facebook: (honorentheos), I read your post. I had gotten the feeling that you weren't active in the church anymore, but now it is confirmed. I like that you don't make a big deal out of it. I figure we just try to be the best people we can be in this life and the rest will work out in the wash in the next life. If I may be so bold, why do you "disbelieve" in the church? I have always respected your opinion and would like to understand better.

Me: Hi _______,

It's probably more complicated than can be expressed in a Facebook message, and generally I take the position of not aiming to injure anyone else's testimony who is happy and benefited by their participation. If I can answer the question broadly, it's that in my opinion the truth claims of the church become unsupportable when the full history and development of the church is examined. I'd add that the process that led to my views included an investigation of Christianity specifically as well and overall my view is religion in general is a man-made institution.

If you really want to talk about specifics I will, but again it isn't my intent to injure anyone's testimony. I suspect you don't think that's possible. Let's just say it would never have occurred to me that I would be where I am in terms of belief 10-15 years ago.

The main reason I wrote my post was because I found out someone close to me was struggling with their own disbelief and was concerned about how others would see them. It made me realize that I needed to be more clear about my position for the sake of those who needed to know they weren't alone.

Friend: Thanks, honorentheos.
I'd say most cases went somewhat similar to that.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by honorentheos »

Another example:
IRL friend on Facebook: Do you get to Utah very often? We'll be down in the Salt Lake City area in July for a reunion, and maybe in _____& for family birthdays.

We didn't recognize too many people in (hometown) when we were down there. A lot of new faces there. We'll have to get together when you come up then!

Me: If (my wife) can get a family fix, we won't go up until the fall when we're sick of the heat down here. But I think there are weddings and other things in August so she may want to go up for that. I just drive, as Ryan Gosling said.

Friend: So...I want to hear it from you, what happened with the church? I don't like to speculate, and when it comes to people I consider friends I like to hear it from them. Hope you don't mind me asking.

Me: No worries. I'm not particularly shy about it, but try to be sensitive to what I think others might not want to talk about.

It's probably more complicated than can be expressed in a Facebook message, and generally I take the position of not aiming to injure anyone else's testimony who is happy and benefited by their participation. If I can answer the question broadly, it's that in my opinion the truth claims of the church become unsupportable when the full history and development of the church is examined. I'd add that the process that led to my views included an investigation of Christianity specifically as well and overall my view is religion in general is a man-made institution. ( Added: yes, I was copying and pasting that bit a lot for a while)

Friend: No worries here. In my opinion everyone is welcome to believe as they choose. It doesn't change the fact that you've always been a good friend of ours and will always remain to be.

Me: thanks. I tend to not think about it much anymore, really. But shooting hoops and summer volleyball I think about all the time.

Friend: LOL! We'll have to try to get together for sure.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10095
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by Res Ipsa »

I’m as deferential to Mormon views as I am to other religious views. I consider religious belief to be a private, personal choice that is generally none of my concern. I haven’t considered myself a Mormon for about 40 years. In that time, only a handful of people asked why I left and just a view ventured beyond my first stock answer: I discovered it was not what it claimed to be.

It’s very similar when Christians ask me about religion. (Never been asked by any other religion). My stock answer is: I’m not a believer. When someone asks why, I tell them that I see no good reason to believe in any flavor of God. A few folks have pushed beyond that, and I’ve had some great discussions with believers about religion in general and Christianity in particular. But I’m always clear that I respect their right to believe and that I consider my views to be just for me.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by mentalgymnast »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:48 pm
I’m as deferential to Mormon views as I am to other religious views. I consider religious belief to be a private, personal choice that is generally none of my concern. I haven’t considered myself a Mormon for about 40 years. In that time, only a handful of people asked why I left and just a view ventured beyond my first stock answer: I discovered it was not what it claimed to be.

It’s very similar when Christians ask me about religion. (Never been asked by any other religion). My stock answer is: I’m not a believer. When someone asks why, I tell them that I see no good reason to believe in any flavor of God. A few folks have pushed beyond that, and I’ve had some great discussions with believers about religion in general and Christianity in particular. But I’m always clear that I respect their right to believe and that I consider my views to be just for me.
Hi Rep Ipsa, hope all is well.

You might be interested in this:

https://www.closertotruth.com/

A LOT of content.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10095
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Are you deferential to Mormon views?

Post by Res Ipsa »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:30 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:48 pm
I’m as deferential to Mormon views as I am to other religious views. I consider religious belief to be a private, personal choice that is generally none of my concern. I haven’t considered myself a Mormon for about 40 years. In that time, only a handful of people asked why I left and just a view ventured beyond my first stock answer: I discovered it was not what it claimed to be.

It’s very similar when Christians ask me about religion. (Never been asked by any other religion). My stock answer is: I’m not a believer. When someone asks why, I tell them that I see no good reason to believe in any flavor of God. A few folks have pushed beyond that, and I’ve had some great discussions with believers about religion in general and Christianity in particular. But I’m always clear that I respect their right to believe and that I consider my views to be just for me.
Hi Rep Ipsa, hope all is well.

You might be interested in this:

https://www.closertotruth.com/

A LOT of content.

Regards,
MG
Thanks, MG. We’ve been lucky in the Ipsa household. I hope all is well for you and yours.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

Post Reply