John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

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Dr LOD
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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Dr LOD »

I have a question wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:36 am
I have a question wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am
"How Many in a Drove?
The problem of overoptimism also works the other way, as some are overoptimistic about the Church losing members. Returning to our original question, are youth leaving the Church in droves? Well, that depends. How many youth are in a drove? The English term drove referred to animals driven or the path along which they were driven and was metaphorically transferred to any crowd or multitude, especially when moving as a body.44 Are youth mindless animals herded by adults and institutions or driven about by every wind of doctrine? This seems unlikely. Philology, then, does not tell us much in this case. It is important to realize that the story about young people leaving the Church in droves is part of a particular narrative,45 one that is largely untrue."

Gee, John (2020-05-10). Saving Faith: How Families Protect, Sustain, and Encourage Faith . RSC, BYU, Deseret Book. Kindle Edition.

Gee's mangling of information so that it fits what he wants to say is also present in this extensive examination of what constitutes "a drove" (it goes on for page after page). The first thing to say is he picked the phrase "leaving in droves" despite already making the point that the General Authority being referenced (Gee refuses to use Elder Jensen's name, presumably because he doesn't want people doing their own research into what he actually said) didn't actually say that. If Jensen didn't say it then there's no need to try and minimise what "leaving in droves" means in terms of actual numbers. The problem Gee refuses to acknowledge is what Jensen actually said...

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2013/01 ... xaggerated

So in an examination of the claim around how many young people are leaving the Church, Gee should be addressing the comment "since Kirtland we’ve never had a period of—I’ll call it apostasy—like we’re having right now". But he doesn't do that, it's too specific a phrase, it's too credible because that is what Jensen actually said. Instead he chooses to go to great lengths examining what constitutes "a drove". Cheap, lazy, deliberately misleading.

Gee also claims that the narrative of people leaving the Church "is largely untrue". THEN WHY THE NEED FOR THE BOOK JOHN? But Gee does not supply any evidence to support his statement. Where are the attendance figures that would settle the matter once and for all? Gee is scrabbling around in the dark trying to sound knowledgable about current activity levels in the Church using decades old non faith specific data whilst trying to also maintain that there isn't a problem. Readers of his book might start off being unaware of an apostasy problem in the Church, but within a few chapters they'll realise Gee is trying too hard to explain something he claims isn't happening. He's going to great lengths to explain the man behind the curtain whilst simultaneously claiming there isn't a man behind the curtain. It's a truly bizarre publication.
This was where the thread was at before it was spiked.
So Gee has constructed a straw-man in a published book to attack a church leader that he has a disagreement with? Likely over another matter. Maybe the SCMC needs to look into this.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by I have a question »

Dr LOD wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:36 pm
So Gee has constructed a straw-man in a published book to attack a church leader that he has a disagreement with? Likely over another matter. Maybe the SCMC needs to look into this.
It is beyond clear that Gee has some simmering anger over Jensen's willingness to tell the truth.
First he point blank refuses to name him in the book. That's either simple childish pettiness, or else Gee doesn't want to give the reader sufficient references to go looking at what Jensen actually said. Gee doesn't want to have to rebut what Jensen actually said - he can't, it's too well documented that 18 - 30 apostasy is a problem in the Church. So instead he focus's the readers attention on a phrase he knows Jensen didn't say and spends a lot of time unnecessarily (but deliberately) splitting hairs over the meaning of the word drove.

Yes it's a very badly constructed straw-man, yes he has an axe to grind with Jensen and he's using his book to grind it. Not only that, the premise of his book is that FP and Q15 are simply not doing a good enough job of retaining 18 - 30 year olds, and are not giving parents and leaders sufficient resources to help them mitigate the exodus levels not seen since the Kirtland era apostasy. It is no wonder that the Maxwell Institute chose to distance themselves from Gee.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Tom »

Kwaku El is claiming there is a campaign to get Dr. Gee's book pulled from Deseret Book and the BYU Religious Studies Center. Today he tweeted the following:
1. PLS RETWEET.
Hey everyone, please send a nice email or call to @DeseretBook

Calvin misrepresented Prof John Gee & they’re being pressured to pull his book. He is the top scholar on The Book of Abraham, and this attack on him is a way to discredit his monumental work..

2. ..giving evidence of the restoration. Calvin’s poor faith tweet is seemingly coordinated with the antimormon podcast’s (MormonStories) recent attack on Professor Gee. An attack video over 5 hours long.

Gee is one of the best scholars in the church, and he has given us waves of new defenses and evidences for TBOA. Antimormons know that tearing down TBOA is a hard punch at the church—this is solely an attempt to hurt a large portion of academic work

3. keeping our doctrine afloat, in a historical and academic lense.

Calvin has tried to ruin the life of his family, and lost in court. He’s now trying to take down John Gee. Don’t let him win!!

4. Email: service@deseretbook.com
Phone: 8888467302

BYU Religious Studies Center
Phone: 801-422-6975

5. Let Deseret Book & Religious Studies Center know that this is a mob attack by antimormons & that you support John Gee and his work, much of which has been stamped with approval by the Bretheren
I checked: the book is no longer listed on the Deseret Book and the BYU Religious Studies Center websites (see https://deseretbook.com/products/161963 and https://rsc.BYU.edu/book/saving-faith).

Recall what Dr. Gee wrote in May about his book:
Almost three and a half years ago, my book An Introduction to the Book of Abraham was announced by Deseret Book. When it was announced a certain individual or group of individuals launched a campaign to have the book suppressed. This delayed the release of the book a number of months (it was over a year from the announcement of the book to its actual release). To forestall something similar happening I have waited to announce my new book, Saving Faith, until it has actually come off the press.
Here is a related blog post responding to a few claims in Dr. Gee's book: https://bycommonconsent.com/2020/08/23/ ... expertise/
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Gadianton »

Holy crap. I'd love to see this guy share these ideas through Interpreter and at Sic et Non.

Why does Kwaku need a rally of support for Gee? If the Brethren unilaterally support Gee as Kwaku says, and as the apologists generally claim about themselves, to be highly favored by the Brethren, then shouldn't one phone call fix this problem?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by consiglieri »

Coordination by anti-Mormons, Kwaku?

Not really.

Ritner's interview about Dr. Gee's shoddy scholarship in Egyptology just happened to coincide with Dr. Gee's shoddy scholarship in sociology.

A perfect storm.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Dr Exiled »

Who knew a doctorate in egyptology didn't qualify someone to make recommendations regarding child and sexual abuse? I wonder if Joseph knew?
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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Dr Moore »

Tom wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:16 pm
Gee is one of the best scholars in the church...
Based on what I have seen, this is a false seminary narrative that insults the many brilliant, and academically honest, LDS scholars who distinguish themselves among secular peers in non apologetic fields.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Kishkumen »

It appears that Calvin is retweeting Prof. Benjamin Park's horrified tweets pointing out the grotesque nonsense Egyptologist John Gee is writing in his book of ideology in the guise of sociology. Deseret Book should be applauded for pulling this ridiculous garbage from its shelves. The book is a travesty.

On the other hand, anything that keeps Kwaku away from his efforts to spread COVID-19 by being an irresponsible idiot party planner perhaps should be allowed to slide. Keep it up Kwaku! Keep finding distractions. Anything to keep you from killing people with COVID-19 parties!
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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Philo Sofee »

Gee's book has been pulled due to the interview of Dr. Ritner, there is very little doubt in my mind. They are to be applauded for doing so. Let the Mormon riff raff howl like Kwaku is, Gee pretends to academic rigor, and has been shown rigorously he is not academic. (notice the chiasmus.....I'm just sayin'...... me thinks I felt a twinge of the Spirit there). NOTHING by John Gee should be published by the church anymore. He is a vastly larger embarrassment than Nibley ever got to be.
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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Shulem »

:mad:

How the hell did a black family get on the cover of his book?

Don't even get me started.

Jesus H Christ!

How to pledge and devote yourself to the CULT!
Close examination shows that weekly church attendance, daily prayer, frequent scripture study, and avoiding sexual activity outside of marriage make a difference in maintaining and preserving faith, confirming what scriptures and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have advised for many years.
What a stupid church. You can't even masturbate in the privacy of your own bedroom without the Church having to KNOW and shame you into guilt and submission.

Stupid Church!

Dan Peterson is a FAT f-ing pig. Hey Dan -- oink, oink!

Disgusting church.

:mad:

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Tom wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:16 pm
Kwaku El is claiming there is a campaign to get Dr. Gee's book pulled from Deseret Book and the BYU Religious Studies Center. Today he tweeted the following:
1. PLS RETWEET.
Hey everyone, please send a nice email or call to @DeseretBook

Calvin misrepresented Prof John Gee & they’re being pressured to pull his book. He is the top scholar on The Book of Abraham, and this attack on him is a way to discredit his monumental work..

2. ..giving evidence of the restoration. Calvin’s poor faith tweet is seemingly coordinated with the antimormon podcast’s (MormonStories) recent attack on Professor Gee. An attack video over 5 hours long.

Gee is one of the best scholars in the church, and he has given us waves of new defenses and evidences for TBOA. Antimormons know that tearing down TBOA is a hard punch at the church—this is solely an attempt to hurt a large portion of academic work

3. keeping our doctrine afloat, in a historical and academic lense.

Calvin has tried to ruin the life of his family, and lost in court. He’s now trying to take down John Gee. Don’t let him win!!

4. Email: service@deseretbook.com
Phone: 8888467302

BYU Religious Studies Center
Phone: 801-422-6975

5. Let Deseret Book & Religious Studies Center know that this is a mob attack by antimormons & that you support John Gee and his work, much of which has been stamped with approval by the Bretheren
I checked: the book is no longer listed on the Deseret Book and the BYU Religious Studies Center websites (see https://deseretbook.com/products/161963 and https://rsc.BYU.edu/book/saving-faith).

Recall what Dr. Gee wrote in May about his book:
Almost three and a half years ago, my book An Introduction to the Book of Abraham was announced by Deseret Book. When it was announced a certain individual or group of individuals launched a campaign to have the book suppressed. This delayed the release of the book a number of months (it was over a year from the announcement of the book to its actual release). To forestall something similar happening I have waited to announce my new book, Saving Faith, until it has actually come off the press.
Here is a related blog post responding to a few claims in Dr. Gee's book: https://bycommonconsent.com/2020/08/23/ ... expertise/
This is a huge, stunning development. You have to wonder about the extent of the panic which is no doubt surging through the Mopologists at the moment. I also can't help but wonder if Dr. Peterson's recent decision to self-censor his political views are somehow connected to this. Regardless, this is absolutely stunning news.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by kairos »

Why the hell will not the church release the numbers of dropouts, defections, resignatiions among all age groups- Brother Gee would definitely have to go back to the drawing board and patch up his analysis imho!

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:This is a huge, stunning development. You have to wonder about the extent of the panic which is no doubt surging through the Mopologists at the moment
Has this book been promoted on Sic et Non or by Interpreter? I know he did a limited critique of Riess's book, but what about a more thorough promotion of his insights into the origins of same-sex attraction etc.?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Tom »

Yes, the Sic et Non proprietor has promoted it: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... faith.html

Note that someone made the following comment earlier today on the post: “Gee's Book was just pulled off the shelves at Deseret Book. Does anybody know why? Thanks.”

The proprietor responded:
I know why.

I don't think that I'm at liberty to say.

I hope that it will be back soon.

I favor debate over book-burning.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Gadianton »

Thanks for that info Tom. It looks like Midgley went all in on this book.

It's kind of ironic that the Proprietor would say he favors "debate" over book-burning.

He certainly had no issue putting Moksha and tavs on the 15th century stake to burn. Oh, that was justified because the debate is leading to bad feelings. What do you want to bet that the same points are being made somewhere about the content of Gees book?

I say, either accept the decision of Deseret Book, or re-instate tavs and Moksha. Probably better keep me banned. ;)
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:40 pm
Thanks for that info Tom. It looks like Midgley went all in on this book.

It's kind of ironic that the Proprietor would say he favors "debate" over book-burning.

He certainly had no issue putting Moksha and tavs on the 15th century stake to burn. Oh, that was justified because the debate is leading to bad feelings.
Well... If we are being completely honest, then I sort of think we have to admit that money has to do with this in a significant way.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Tom wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:29 pm
Yes, the Sic et Non proprietor has promoted it: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... faith.html

Note that someone made the following comment earlier today on the post: “Gee's Book was just pulled off the shelves at Deseret Book. Does anybody know why? Thanks.”

The proprietor responded:
I know why.

I don't think that I'm at liberty to say.

I hope that it will be back soon.

I favor debate over book-burning.
Tom:

Of course this is more evidence that he's been "muzzled," possibly by the General Authorities. "I don't think I'm at liberty to say"?? Really? Free speech and academic freedom are both "things," from what I've heard. Maybe those things don't exist at "Sic et Non," or within the LDS Church, or at BYU, but nonetheless, I think that most people understand the *ideas* of "Free Speech" and "Academic Freedom," and would feel really bothered about the prospect of seeing those things taken away. I wonder what "scepter of judgement" was waived over him such that he felt intimidated into silence.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Wow... They must be getting absolutely slaughtered. Just look at this desperate post.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Philo Sofee »

He probably hasn't been intimidated into silence, so much as strongly suggested he be silent. When the Brethren wish, the small fry obey. And Peterson is owned by the church which pays him.
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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Tom »

I see that DezNatters are pushing their fellow confederates to buy Gee's book on Amazon and anywhere else it's still available. See here, for example.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Re: John Gee claims in his new book intro that there's no need for his new book

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

The reviews are in: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/19 ... geNumber=2

mama wapikiya
This doctrine causes shame and trauma
Reviewed in the United States on August 25, 2020
This is a harmful doctrine that has caused so much pain and suffering. As a former member, I definitely do NOT recommend this book. The amount of trauma this religion causes is immense.

Amazon Customer
Author lacks expertise in the topic
Reviewed in the United States on August 25, 2020
The author is a professional Egyptologist, so his foray into this topic is confusing. The sociological studies cited as evidence of the author's thesis are often in conflict with his premise. This book is also "inside baseball" for members of the LDS faith, who largely already believe what is being said, so I wonder who the target audience is, other than to scare the "faithful". This book contains no new scholarship, and there are other, better texts that deal with the demographic challenges of faith groups without advocating a return to a non-existent 1950's middle-class white nuclear family.

Heidi's IPhone
Harmful information
Reviewed in the United States on August 23, 2020
If there were 0 stars possible, that’s what I would give this book. Instead of saving faith, I have lost faith. How was this book allowed to be published? Thank you for more LGBTQ+ inaccurate yet extremely harmful information. This book is a true disappointment.

Michael Johnson
Not worth your time
Reviewed in the United States on August 23, 2020
A horrible book. Not worth your time or money. Equates sexuality with abuse which has been proven false time and time again. Just a total trash book.

Jared E.
Abuse victims become homosexuals?? Really?
Reviewed in the United States on August 23, 2020
John Gee claims in this book that victims of childhood sexual abuse will be more likely to be ome homosexuals and abusers than non victims. This book is disgusting and shouldn't be sold. This man is an egyptologist not someone who should be writing about issues of abuse which he clearly knows nothing about.

J. spowart
I was extremely offended by the contents of this book.
Reviewed in the United States on August 24, 2020
I complained to BYU about the contents of the book and was told it was being removed from circulation. I hope it is also removed here although I have no idea how long it takes for a book to be pulled from Amazon.


Sam Adams
Lacking in integrity
Reviewed in the United States on August 20, 2020
Gee likes to play it fast and loose with the facts when it comes to re-entrenching his own world view. Particularly abhorrent is the author’s claim that sexual abuse causes homosexuality. Not only does the study he cites for this claim materially contradict his conclusions, but this claim is also harmful to LGBT and LGBT-adjacent parents and children. Look elsewhere for more truthful and responsible insights on raising a faithful family.

Aaron
Complete junk! Trash! Not worth one cent.
Reviewed in the United States on August 20, 2020
What a piece of junk! In this book the author states “Victims of sexual abuse deserve compassion and assistance. They also deserve special care because they are more likely to become sexual abusers of children.” How can any university today publish such junk?

Darwin8u
Regressive defense of a fascinating Church. Avoid.
Reviewed in the United States on August 21, 2020
The worst kind of LDS apologetics. The more Gee gets out of his lane (He’s an expert in Egyptian antiquities) the less rigorous his writing and thinking is.

This is the kind of book, with its oblique attacks on homosexuality, and ham-fisted defense of the Church (always right), that is quite dangerous to the very THING it is trying to defend.

The thinking behind it is so regressive. Maybe Gee has spent too much time with antiquities. His book feels like a time capsule from 50 years ago. Ugh.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014

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