FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:03 pm
And that's how Oliver Cowdery interpreted a similar (albeit bonerless) image in the Ta-Shert-Min (Book of Joseph) papyrus:

Image

“The serpent, represented as walking, or formed in a manner to be able to walk, standing in front of and near a female figure, is to me one of the greatest representations I have ever seen upon paper, or a writing substance; and must go so far towards convincing the rational mind of the correctness and divine authority of the holy scriptures” (Messenger and Advocate, Dec 1835, Vol II No. 3, pg. 236)
Suppose the serpent in this case had a boner; surely Cowdery's account would bear additional narrative. In that case, I can imagine Cowdery equating the depiction of a snake having a boner as an evil omen, the temptations of the devil -- the sure sign of the boner -- in which it represents the depravity and sexual sins of the world.

It's interesting to note how Cowdery offhandedly suggests that it was Joseph in Egypt who is the author and artist of the Book of Joseph and the roll in their possession is *that* very roll penned by Joseph in ancient times. Cowdery alludes to ancient Joseph being the author when he says "the correctness and divine authority of the holy scriptures" is represented on the very papyrus at hand. Hence the correctness and authority of the roll of Joseph is based on the assertion that it's Joseph's actual roll, his handiwork or a literal 3,500 year old autograph. Compared to Abraham's roll and writing, Joseph was said to have been the "better scribe".

User avatar
Hagoth
Valiant B
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:16 am

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:01 am
Take a peek at the notorious apologetic website, CONFLICT OF JUSTICE
OK, here's something I'd like to run past you, Shulem.

Conflict of Justice says:
Kolob & Knum – This central character in the hypocephalus is Knum, asthe diagram in CES Letter says, yes, but Knum is acting as an aspect of Amun-Re. The name Knumu (KHM) is interesting because so many creator gods around the ancient world have similar sounding names:

Kamuni in Japan
Karora in Australia
Karusakaibo in the Amazon
Keri in South America

Shall we add Kolob to that list? It would be no stretch.
Maybe we shouldn't be too hasty in adding Kolob to that list. Here's an answer that is less of a stretch. Since Joseph/Abraham passes off Hebrew words as Egyptian, like the word Kokaubeam as the Egyptian word for stars even though it is merely the Hebrew word for stars, might there also be a Hebrew source for Kolob?

Sirius is the brightest star in the sky as seen from earth. This may not be a big deal today but it was given a lot more significance before we understood how star magnitudes differ because of size, surface brightness and relative distance. It makes sense that Sirius might have also been considered a very important star in other ways.

Sirius is known commonly as the Dog Star, and has been since ancient times. The Hebrew word for dog is Keleb.

Did Joseph Smith riff on Hebrew words to make new Egyptian names? Libnah is the name of a town in the Bible, but also a Hebrew word for moon. Similarly, Olishem may be a combination of the words “olah” (“burnt sacrifice” or “evil”) and “shem” (“name”), in other words, the name of a place for evil sacrifice.

The Hebrew word Keleb seems like it might be a much more likely place to look for the origin of Kolob than Egyptian Knum.

But maybe that's just me.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Joseph Smith borrowed/stole everything he got his hands on. He attempted to meld Hebrew components into the Egyptian language -- doing so, fully knowing that nobody at that time could disprove him because the Egyptian language was dead. Smith's commentaries and terminology of Egyptian language is laughable to the extreme. The Kirtland Papers provide a keen view of his linguistic laboratory as he and the boys (scribes) tried to restore the Egyptian language by revelation from the Mormon Spirit. But do note that Smith was RESPONSIBLE for the content of the Kirtland Papers and his scribes were only acting as scribes under Smith's direct supervision.

Today, Mormon apologists have abandoned pretty much all of the statements made by those who worked with Smith as any kind of authoritative explanation of how the Book of Abraham was produced and what was entailed in making it. Today's apologists have thrown them, including Smith, under the bus!

Apologists today have reinvented the Book of Abraham for themselves and are endlessly devising new parallels and visual samples in effort to make the Book of Abraham look authentically ancient and mystical. The apologists today don't give a damn what Smith or his associates said about how they made the Book of Abraham. The apologists are attempting to rewrite history and make the Book of Abraham conform to their testimony that the Cult is True -- no matter what.

It's all so sad.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Kerry Shirts wrote:Image

(EAG Fig. 7) Notice the figure which is presenting the Wedjat eye is harldy drawn, and the EAG artist didn't know what to do with the Wedjat Eye! It doesn't resemble it at all. Compare this with the Joseph Smith Hypo however.
Okay, here we go again -- let's look at the apologist's (Kerry Shirts) observation in more detail. After all, that is what he demands!

Look at the arms and hands that embrace the Wedjat or Eye of Horus. Notice the formation of arms and hands. Although the arms are crudely drawn being copies of stick form from the papyrus, you can still make out (to some degree) that there are elbows, forearms, and hands.

Image


Now compare the same scene from a different Hypocephalus and you can clearly see that the Eye of Horus is embraced within the hands of the ithyphallic serpent god.

Image


But now, when we examine the Facsimile No. 2, produced by Hedlock, the Eye of Horus is not so clearly embraced as the serpent's hand reaches downward as if he just swatted "God's penis" and ended his erection.

Isn't that right, Dr. Shades?

:lol:

Image

User avatar
Hagoth
Valiant B
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:16 am

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:09 am
Smith's commentaries and terminology of Egyptian language is laughable to the extreme. The Kirtland Papers provide a keen view of his linguistic laboratory as he and the boys (scribes) tried to restore the Egyptian language by revelation from the Mormon Spirit.
Aw c'mon, give Brother Joseph a break. From the GAEL:

Zub zool - The first born
Zi oop hah - A young virgin
Hoe oop hah phat heh - Patriarchal government
Zab zoal - From the beginning
Phah ho e oop - A king who has universal dominion
Zip zi - Women
Tish Zi hoe oop sater: The glory of the Celestial Kingdom

...and...

“Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O the earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]” (Times and Seasons, November 13, 1843, Joseph Smith, editor)

Looks pretty legit to me.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Explanations from the Facsimile by Joe Smith

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:Zub zool - The first born
Image

Hagoth wrote:Phah ho e oop - A king who has universal dominion
Image


Hagoth wrote:Hoe oop hah phat heh - Patriarchal government
Image

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

You too, must marry Joseph Smith

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:Zip zi - Women
Image

User avatar
Hagoth
Valiant B
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:16 am

Re: Explanations from the Facsimile by Joe Smith

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 am
Image
Ah yes, the Third token of the Hah Phat Heh Priesthood which must be given to the feathered and talened sentinels to enter the KFC (Kentucky Fried Cingdom).
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Book of Abraham Recommend Questions

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of the Book of Abraham Facsimile No. 2, the Erect Min-Man; Bird Boy on a boat; and the Horny Snake?

2. Do you have a testimonkey of the Oneness of the Two-Headed Man and of His role in taming jumping monkeys in Fig. 1?

3. Do you have a testimonkey of Erect Min-Man revealing his third leg to the Horny Snake?

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

We have several eyewitness accounts of Smith and Cowdery describing content and imagery from the papyri not included in the publication of the Facsimiles. But none the less, suppose for a moment that there wasn't a lacuna in the Hypocephalus (Facsimile No.2) wherein Smith credits the "sign of the Holy Ghost" appearing before Abraham's god. If this were the case we could expect to be treated with a standardized scene such as this:

Image

Would Smith have given the above as "the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove"? How hardly!

I think it's reasonable to conclude based on what Smith is reported to say about other less than desirable images on the papyri that the snake would have been associated with the devil. Perhaps this would have been a representation of the war in heaven with Satan rebelling and being cast out. That would have fit the Book of Abraham just fine.

Yeah, but as it is, Smith had only a portion of the original scene and he made a very bad guess of what he thought was in the lacuna. It's proof positive that Smith had no idea and was making crap up. The Church today remains embarrassed and apologists don't like to talk about it. Can anyone blame them? It's a horrific stain on Smith's so-called ability to interpret Egyptian.

User avatar
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 6578
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am

Re: Explanations from the Facsimile by Joe Smith

Post by Philo Sofee »

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:12 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 am
Image
Ah yes, the Third token of the Hah Phat Heh Priesthood which must be given to the feathered and talened sentinels to enter the KFC (Kentucky Fried Cingdom).
Are those Dodo's or chickens? If only Jeff Hollands face could be put on one of those, we'd have the Apostolic KFC!!!
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Explanations from the Facsimile by Joe Smith

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:58 pm
Are those Dodo's or chickens? If only Jeff Hollands face could be put on one of those, we'd have the Apostolic KFC!!!
Get back to church and pay your tithing!

Image

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 22368
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: You too, must marry Joseph Smith

Post by moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:43 am
Hagoth wrote:Zip zi - Women
Image
Zip zi doo dah?
Zip zi dee ay!
My, oh my
It's a marrying day!
Plenty of something
Headin' my way
Zip zi doo dah,
Zip zi dee ay!
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

The Devil or the Spirit -- which is it?

Post by Shulem »

Image

It was up to Smith to determine what sort of animal was originally in the lacuna. All he had was the head, arms, and hands. The body was scraped or broken from the original disc of the papyrus.

Smith's "translation is given as far as we have any right to give" was a revelation given BY THE SPIRIT restores the animal to a DOVE -- "sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove". It's reasonable to expect that when Smith talks about the nature of the Holy Spirit he is also going to claim he is being led by the Spirit to expound, preach, and teach correct principles. Not man's thoughts but God's thoughts given through the inspiration of the Spirit. That is how Smith operated and that is what he claimed time and time again.

Egyptologists know that the original animal was not a dove. The Egyptians drew nothing of the sort on the Hypocephalus wherein a dove is not associated with the spell. It was indeed, a serpent god. No Egyptologist will back Smith's restoration of the serpent to a dove. Not even John Gee would stoop that low! But seeing that the serpent was original to the scene this lends us to consider something Smith once said in his journal:
Joseph Smith wrote:institutd before the creation Devil could not come in sign of a dove
This means that Smith's inclusion of a dove before the throne of God precludes the possibility the dove could have been a representation of the rebellion of the Devil. This also means that if Smith had known that the head was really that of a serpent he would not have assigned the figure as being the Holy Spirit because when is the Spirit ever manifested in the form of a serpent? Heaven forbid!

It only goes to show that Smith was making stuff up as he saw it according to his whims. If it was a dove then it was the Spirit. But if it was a serpent it would have been the Devil -- just the opposite. That is how Smith operated. He was ignorantly shooting from the hip and his followers believed his lies.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Three Gods in One (Three penises in one hand?)

Post by Shulem »

Oliver Cowdery, Second Elder of the Church & Assistant to the President claimed to have scored a bullseye in identifying the Christian God expressed on the papyrus:
MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE December p.236,1835 wrote:The language in which this record is written is very comprehensive, and many of the hieroglyphics exceedingly striking. The evidence is apparent upon the face, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of notions of the Deity. The representation of the god-head-three, yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writers views of that exalted personage.

Image
(The papyrus and vignette can be viewed here at the Joseph Smith Papers)

Smith & his right hand man (Second Elder of the Church) are on record for making all kinds of wild claims about biblical Deity being portrayed on the papyrus and that "the writer's views" were correct ideas and notions of that Deity.

Does the Church today stand by Cowdery's published claims he made in 1835 about God being portrayed on the papyrus and that the Holy Spirit featured in Facsimile No.2 is a representation of the original drawing and a correct interpretation of the biblical Spirit?

What does the Church have to say?

Zip nada zilch ee.

:lol:

User avatar
Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Holy Ghost »

Shulem, what are your thoughts on Joseph Smith's restoration of the parts of the outer ring missing from the hypocephalus?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:31 pm
Shulem, what are your thoughts on Joseph Smith's restoration of the parts of the outer ring missing from the hypocephalus?
My thoughts in this regard are rather simple. First, I point out that Smith never attempted to formerly translate them in the Explanations but left that for some future day, "will be given in the own due time of the Lord". Unfortunately for Smith, he died two years later and didn't get the chance to produce more Egyptian translations as he promised he would do. It's been 178 years since the Facsimile was first published so it seems that the Lord is in no hurry and has plenty of due time on his hands. In the meantime, generation after generation of Latter-day saints have passed on with no additional word of the Lord regarding Facsimile No.2. The prophets don't prophesy and have done nothing to advance the cause of Smith's translations. All they do is repeat themselves in gospel basics and quote one another.

As you know, the hieroglyphs (hieratic) Smith planted in the lacuna of the outer ring came from the other papyrus Smith had on hand. Smith simply took hieroglyphs pretty much at random and settled them in the ring so that the Facsimile would appear complete. It really doesn't seem to be anything more than a move to make it appear aesthetically pleasing. Personally, I am not going to fault Smith for doing that because I can't know what his true intentions were in doing so. But had he attempted to decipher those hieroglyphs then modern Egyptology would have uncovered more of his false claims to translate the writing.

Apologists today should consider themselves fortunate that Smith didn't translate the outer ring and publish that because it would only have made their job harder than it already is. Everything that Smith ever said about hieroglyphs has been proven untrue. I tend to think the same had he translated the outer ring into more of his mumbo jumbo nonsense.

User avatar
Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Holy Ghost »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:26 pm
Holy Ghost wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:31 pm
Shulem, what are your thoughts on Joseph Smith's restoration of the parts of the outer ring missing from the hypocephalus?
My thoughts in this regard are rather simple. First, I point out that Smith never attempted to formerly translate them in the Explanations but left that for some future day, "will be given in the own due time of the Lord". Unfortunately for Smith, he died two years later and didn't get the chance to produce more Egyptian translations as he promised he would do. It's been 178 years since the Facsimile was first published so it seems that the Lord is in no hurry and has plenty of due time on his hands. In the meantime, generation after generation of Latter-day saints have passed on with no additional word of the Lord regarding Facsimile No.2. The prophets don't prophesy and have done nothing to advance the cause of Smith's translations. All they do is repeat themselves in gospel basics and quote one another.

As you know, the hieroglyphs (hieratic) Smith planted in the lacuna of the outer ring came from the other papyrus Smith had on hand. Smith simply took hieroglyphs pretty much at random and settled them in the ring so that the Facsimile would appear complete. It really doesn't seem to be anything more than a move to make it appear aesthetically pleasing. Personally, I am not going to fault Smith for doing that because I can't know what his true intentions were in doing so. But had he attempted to decipher those hieroglyphs then modern Egyptology would have uncovered more of his false claims to translate the writing.

Apologists today should consider themselves fortunate that Smith didn't translate the outer ring and publish that because it would only have made their job harder than it already is. Everything that Smith ever said about hieroglyphs has been proven untrue. I tend to think the same had he translated the outer ring into more of his mumbo jumbo nonsense.
Are hieratics and hieroglyphics the same thing?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: FACSIMILE NO 2 "In the Form of a Dove" Web Page will take you for a ride you'll never forget! It has a happy ending!

Post by Shulem »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:55 pm

Are hieratics and hieroglyphics the same thing?
Yes and no. Yes, because they convey the same message. No, because they are different scripts. One was formal and the other was cursive but they are different Egyptian writing systems that say the same thing. Had Smith known how to read Egyptian he wouldn't have rudely mixed the scripts. Had Joseph known that we wouldn't be having this conversation now. lol

Post Reply