Three Powerful Books

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

I think MG owes an explanation for why disbelief in the possibilty of Nephites should be equated to being closed to belief in God. I believe at least three participants in this thread are Christian who nonetheless do not believe the Book of Mormon is historical or that Nephites were real. Yet he insists that the issue comes down to people first rejecting God which biases a person against the Book of Mormon. I believe most of us who disagree argue instead the evidence for the Book of Mormon not being a historical record is simply overwhelming the claims that it is historical.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Physics Guy »

If anyone who was willing to believe in God were thereby inclined to accept the Book of Mormon, the majority of the human population would be LDS.

Themis
God
Posts: 13238
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Themis »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 am
Yet he insists that the issue comes down to people first rejecting God which biases a person against the Book of Mormon.
And he avoids questions about how people can be believing LDS, have read these apologetic's, and yet end up rejecting Book of Mormon historicity.
42

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:43 pm
If anyone who was willing to believe in God were thereby inclined to accept the Book of Mormon, the majority of the human population would be LDS.
That’s not what I’m saying. It’s rather simple. No God, no Book of Mormon given by the hand of God/angels. If there is a God the door is open for belief in the BofM. But not by necessity. Again, it’s rather simple.

Isn’t it rather obvious that there are at least a few God believers out there that don’t take the Book of Mormon seriously and/or believe that it’s God sanctioned/ordained?

It’s rather elementary that I’m even having to say this.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Themis wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:22 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 am
Yet he insists that the issue comes down to people first rejecting God which biases a person against the Book of Mormon.
And he avoids questions about how people can be believing LDS, have read these apologetic's, and yet end up rejecting Book of Mormon historicity.
I don’t think this is the first time that I’ve said that I fully understand that some people will read the apologetics and end up rejecting BofM historicity. I don’t know that that’s even open to question.

That doesn’t make them right. :wink:

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 am
I think MG owes an explanation for why disbelief in the possibilty of Nephites should be equated to being closed to belief in God. I believe at least three participants in this thread are Christian who nonetheless do not believe the Book of Mormon is historical or that Nephites were real. Yet he insists that the issue comes down to people first rejecting God which biases a person against the Book of Mormon. I believe most of us who disagree argue instead the evidence for the Book of Mormon not being a historical record is simply overwhelming the claims that it is historical.
It may be important to remember, however, that as you’re writing this you’re writing as a disbeliever in a creator God. At least if I’m not mistaken.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:37 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:24 pm
why does that not surprise me. :rolleyes:
It was Pahoran-esque behavior from multiple posters, many of whom surprised me with their vitriol. Genuinely personal, vile comments were aimed at her that went ignored by the mods. Pointing it out resulted in threats of banning. It was bizarre. It also showed that she had hit a deep nerve, too. I think many people who spend time defending the Book of Mormon online in forums like these viewed Brants work as unassailable. But also, I think it has a certain last line of defense quality to it, too. So when it was assaulted and shown to be quite vulnerable, the response wasn't measured and calm.
It was by Brant though. He is a scholar and a gentleman.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:53 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 am
I think MG owes an explanation for why disbelief in the possibilty of Nephites should be equated to being closed to belief in God. I believe at least three participants in this thread are Christian who nonetheless do not believe the Book of Mormon is historical or that Nephites were real. Yet he insists that the issue comes down to people first rejecting God which biases a person against the Book of Mormon. I believe most of us who disagree argue instead the evidence for the Book of Mormon not being a historical record is simply overwhelming the claims that it is historical.
It may be important to remember, however, that as you’re writing this you’re writing as a disbeliever in a creator God. At least if I’m not mistaken.

Regards,
MG
If your argument has to lean so hard on people losing/lacking belief in God to explain why you ignore the very clear points made that it's the evidence against Nephites not God at issue here, well. I think you know why you keep trying to prop it up over and over when that crutch gets taken away but don't have another leg to put under it of your own.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:55 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:37 pm


It was Pahoran-esque behavior from multiple posters, many of whom surprised me with their vitriol. Genuinely personal, vile comments were aimed at her that went ignored by the mods. Pointing it out resulted in threats of banning. It was bizarre. It also showed that she had hit a deep nerve, too. I think many people who spend time defending the Book of Mormon online in forums like these viewed Brants work as unassailable. But also, I think it has a certain last line of defense quality to it, too. So when it was assaulted and shown to be quite vulnerable, the response wasn't measured and calm.
It was by Brant though. He is a scholar and a gentleman.

Regards,
MG
We agree he is a gentleman. His arguments are garbage though.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:50 pm
Themis wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:22 pm


And he avoids questions about how people can be believing LDS, have read these apologetic's, and yet end up rejecting Book of Mormon historicity.
I don’t think this is the first time that I’ve said that I fully understand that some people will read the apologetics and end up rejecting BofM historicity. I don’t know that that’s even open to question.

That doesn’t make them right. :wink:

Regards,
MG
It's not the apologetics that people read and realize the Book of Mormon isn't what they'd been taught it was. It's the scope and breadth of scientific evidence against the Book of Mormon being an actual historical record. The apologetics are attempting to convince people all of that evidence doesn't matter. Some attempt it by appealing to subjective experiences people have with the book. Some attempt to reframe the evidence. Others attempt to argue the social and personal value of the Book of Mormon is what one should focus on rather than it's value as a book about a past culture. But they all are also responding to non-LDS focused evidence. And they want you to ignore what the science shows to be the case. All reading the apologetics contributes to that is revealing how bad the arguments are against the overwhelming evidence it is a work of fiction.

DNA studies weren't invented to evaluate the Book of Mormon. Archeology and anthropology weren't developed because someone was out to prove there weren't Nephites. There are great arguments against the Book of Mormon in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel that he had no intention of seeing compared to Mormon claims about the domestication of plant and animal species in the new world. The vast, vast majority of the most damning evidence against the Book of Mormon is oblivious to the Book of Mormon existing, just like most people are ignorant about Mormonism.

God belief doesn't make Nephites any more possible. It requires a will to ignore facts in favor of Mormonism. But Nephites weren't real so the evidence is never going to swing in favor of that position. It's that simple.

ETA: My favorite Mormon Expressions podcast that relates to the above: http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/M ... sion67.mp3
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

Themis
God
Posts: 13238
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:46 pm
That’s not what I’m saying. It’s rather simple. No God, no Book of Mormon given by the hand of God/angels. If there is a God the door is open for belief in the BofM. But not by necessity. Again, it’s rather simple.
The problem is you are not dealing with lifelong atheists here. Almost every atheist or agnostic here was once a believing member of the LDS church and is aware of many of the arguments presented in those books you are promoting. Any questioning members are already open to the Book of Mormon being true. The problem is not atheists, but member's discovering the evidences showing the Book of Mormon is not historical. LDS apologia just helps us see they don't have good answers to the problems of the Book of Mormon.
42

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:53 pm
It's the scope and breadth of scientific evidence against the Book of Mormon being an actual historical record. The apologetics are attempting to convince people all of that evidence doesn't matter.
It does go both ways.

https://www.bookofmormoncentral.org/blo ... -of-Mormon

And so forth...

Those threads, links, and conversations are available all over the internet and in books and other publications. You’ve seen them. So have I. We look at the evidence and weigh other contributing factors differently. And that’s fine.

Regards,
MG

Themis
God
Posts: 13238
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:48 am
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:53 pm
It's the scope and breadth of scientific evidence against the Book of Mormon being an actual historical record. The apologetics are attempting to convince people all of that evidence doesn't matter.
It does go both ways.

https://www.bookofmormoncentral.org/blo ... -of-Mormon

And so forth...

Those threads, links, and conversations are available all over the internet and in books and other publications. You’ve seen them. So have I. We look at the evidence and weigh other contributing factors differently. And that’s fine.

Regards,
MG
LOL It most certainly does not go both ways. If it came even a little close you would not see so many believing members stop believing the Book of Mormon as historical.
42

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Themis wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:57 am
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:48 am


It does go both ways.

https://www.bookofmormoncentral.org/blo ... -of-Mormon

And so forth...

Those threads, links, and conversations are available all over the internet and in books and other publications. You’ve seen them. So have I. We look at the evidence and weigh other contributing factors differently. And that’s fine.

Regards,
MG
LOL It most certainly does not go both ways. If it came even a little close you would not see so many believing members stop believing the Book of Mormon as historical.
I think you and I both know it’s not as simple as you make it out to be.
Mere repeated exposure of the individual to a stimulus is a sufficient condition for the enhancement of a person’s attitude toward it.
Check out “ Mere-exposure effect” on Wikipedia.

Also check out “Illusory Truth Effect”
The illusory truth effect (also known as the illusion of truth effect, validity effect, truth effect, or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure. This phenomenon was first identified in a 1977 study at Villanova University and Temple University. When truth is assessed, people rely on whether the information is in line with their understanding or if it feels familiar. The first condition is logical, as people compare new information with what they already know to be true. Repetition makes statements easier to process relative to new, unrepeated statements, leading people to believe that the repeated conclusion is more truthful. The illusory truth effect has also been linked to hindsight bias, in which the recollection of confidence is skewed after the truth has been received.
Believer...Non Believer. The same psychology is at play. It does work both ways. Mere-exposure effect and Illusory truth effect have taken you to where you’re at.

Regards,
MG

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10368
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

Lol. You really should read the clips before you cut and paste, Mentalgymnast.

illusory truth effect (also known as the illusion of truth effect, validity effect, truth effect, or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure
You know, false information like stories about ufos, BigFoot, the Three Nephites, Lamanites, reformed Egyptian, and the Book of Mormon as an ancient historical document. Your wiki categories are referring to you.
Mentalgymnast explaining himself wrote: Mere-exposure effect and Illusory truth effect have taken [me] to where [I’m] at.

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:48 am
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:53 pm
It's the scope and breadth of scientific evidence against the Book of Mormon being an actual historical record. The apologetics are attempting to convince people all of that evidence doesn't matter.
It does go both ways.

https://www.bookofmormoncentral.org/blo ... -of-Mormon

And so forth...

Those threads, links, and conversations are available all over the internet and in books and other publications. You’ve seen them. So have I. We look at the evidence and weigh other contributing factors differently. And that’s fine.

Regards,
MG
This is an example that proves the point. An apologetic website lists five items of evidence FOR the Book of Mormon. And then focuses on either attempts to show minor elements of the story such as metal plates, barley, and cement being discovered after the Book of Mormon was published are evidence. Or, in the case of the NHM alter and seal, artifacts are getting tied to Book of Mormon stories in ways outside archeologists ignore because it's just more Mormon hobby horse behaviour.

That's not an example that shows the evidence cuts both ways. It's trying to scramble out an argument to explain why there is no evidence of the people described in the Book of Mormon In the archeological record but instead apologetics have been reduced to finding hints of Nephites among the real, historic peoples who were decidedly not Nephites, Lamanites, or any other Book of Mormon -ites.

Belief in God doesn't change that. Wanting the Book of Mormon to be real is what leads to what you and Book of Mormon Central are doing. But that's swimming against a very strong current of evidence which is indifferent to the Book of Mormon as most scientists whose studies overlap just find it irrelevent. Coe dismissed the Book of Mormon as an expert on the Maya because an expert doesn't find Mayan culture in the Book of Mormon. Now folks like the Dale's and Gardner go about playing hide and seek "finding" Nephites in the serious work of archeology. But the serious archeologists recognize it for what it is. And that's how the evidence works here, MG.
Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:02 pm
Lol. Read the clips before you post, Mentalgymnast.
Figured that you or someone would come back with this. Mere-exposure effect has played with your mind. :wink:

Are you not subject to conditioning influences?

I am. Am I no different than you?

Illusory Truth Effect

Mere-exposure Effect

We’re all subject to these psychological conditioning influences.

Like I said, it goes both ways. In my opinion, however, it’s important to see the human condition for what it is. We’re all subject especially to the ‘behind the scenes’ conditioning of Mere-exposure effect. It occurs in many respects beyond our conscious control.

I don’t know how you can be so dang sure of yourself and that your beliefs/views in looking at the world are inherently correct...rather than possibly corrupted or infected with false ideology or psychological influences beyond your control. It was recently that you said as much in regards to familial influences that had an impact on the way you view God...or the non-existence of God to be more exact. And that was something you were actually able to articulate.

What about all the other stuff along the way occurring through Mere-exposure effect. Day by day, Month by month, year to year?

You’re not immune.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

And you’re not immune either honor.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11009
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm
And you’re not immune either honor.

Regards,
MG
I know. But the opinion based on overwhelming evidence the probability is incredibly high the Book of Mormon is fiction is not relying on bias to carry it.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
Gadianton
Hermit
Posts: 9777
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Gadianton »

MG's alleged world is totally moronic. In the world he imagines, everyone is a slave to bias and all bias is equally biased. Since evidence only amounts to support pre-existing bias, how is it that anybody ever changes their mind? If evidence changes opinion, then some opinions could be better than others in principle, and MG couldn't in principle keep saying ad nauseam that so-and-so isn't immune to bias and thus, that person's arguments dismissed because bias is always the driving explanation. For bias to always be the explanation, then evidence can never really mean anything. Thus, a change in opinion is merely a shift in bias for reasons other than evidence. Therefore, it's pointless to ever look for evidence for anything, and the "three powerful books" themselves are pointless to read.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10368
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:45 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:02 pm
Lol. Read the clips before you post, Mentalgymnast.
...rather than possibly corrupted or infected with false ideology or psychological influences beyond your control. It was recently that you said as much in regards to familial influences that had an impact on the way you view God...or the non-existence of God to be more exact. And that was something you were actually able to articulate.
Lol. No I didn’t. That’s your Midgley-esque pathology asserting itself.

So, do you still not realize your clip was referring to a false information situation?

Post Reply