Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:25 am
Res Ipsa
I’m not the one dividing people into friends and enemies. That’s all you. I don’t identify as a secular humanist — that’s you cramming me into a box so that you can can have that enemy you so deeply crave. Your “nuance” is pure affectation. Deep down, you’re nuanced as a sledgehammer.

I don’t need to make up enemies. I don’t need someone to fear and hate. Apparently, you can’t be a happy person without an enemy to hate.
A deeply profound point. The fear and paranoia in so much religion, even unnecessarily has led to warped thinking and skewed logic for millenia, which skewing is anchored in their already paranoid and skewed scripture which they imagine is free from taint and problem when it comes to visceral reality. MG is so biased he cannot even see how badly skewed his own world view is... And hence it must needs be that there is an opposition (enemy) in all things in his little mind, or else there is no reality. God has devil, Dr. Peterson has Scratch, Midlgey has Moksha, so MG needs to be a good Mormon and get an enemy. That's where secular humanists come in. Hey, if they are evil to an apostle then MG feels perfectly justified in accepting they are evil in general. Who is he to question an apostle? An apostle of the Holy Jesus Christ lord of the universe?! When an apostle opines, MG snaps to all ears, attention, and belief.
As a secular humanist do you see yourself as having an “enemy” and/or opposition? Religionists maybe? If so, do you feel it your duty to stand up for your truth? Are you biased in your agnostic/atheistic worldview to the point that you are not able to recognize any possible ‘chinks’ in your protective armor of unbelief?

Do you see yourself ever questioning the precepts and teachings of the Four Horsemen of Atheism? When they speak do you, generally speaking, give priority/meaning to their words over a believing scientist? If so, why?

Do you see a theistic worldview as being inherently dangerous? If you could wave a magic wand and turn everyone into a secular humanist would you do so?

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:47 pm
Callister's book is about as informative and reliable as a Trump news conference.
Would I be correct in concluding that you made this statement without actually having read the book yourself?

If I am correct, may I suggest that you read it? As it is, you are getting the ‘CNN’ commentary on the book, so to speak. And there is bias there.

I find myself predispositioned towards listening not only to CNN modeled/biased commentary on books written about the church, Book of Mormon, or history, but also views expressed by those that may see things differently. The FOX news modeled/biased commentary. I find that any truth to be had is somewhere in the middle rather than to one or another extreme.

I’d suggest actually reading any one or more of the books I’ve mentioned. A few folks here have. Their opinions are to be valued at least to the extent that they are doing their own thinking rather than relying on the thinking/biases of Brian Stelter wannabes.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:55 pm
Do you see yourself ever questioning the precepts and teachings of the Four Horsemen of Atheism? When they speak do you, generally speaking, give priority/meaning to their words over a believing scientist? If so, why?
:lol:

Treating the so-called four horsemen like they are an analog for Mormon Apostles is so MG. Good Jesus that's funny.
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:15 pm
Fence Sitter wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:47 pm
Callister's book is about as informative and reliable as a Trump news conference.
Would I be correct in concluding that you made this statement without actually having read the book yourself?

If I am correct, may I suggest that you read it? As it is, you are getting the ‘CNN’ commentary on the book, so to speak. And there is bias there.

I find myself predispositioned towards listening not only to CNN modeled/biased commentary on books written about the church, Book of Mormon, or history, but also views expressed by those that may see things differently. The FOX news modeled/biased commentary. I find that any truth to be had is somewhere in the middle rather than to one or another extreme.

I’d suggest actually reading any one or more of the books I’ve mentioned. A few folks here have. Their opinions are to be valued at least to the extent that they are doing their own thinking rather than relying on the thinking/biases of Brian Stelter wannabes.

Regards,
MG
So you went all the way back to page 1 of this thread for fencesitter's comment. Why? Did you miss his point?
There is an excellent review at Amazon why this book should not be taken seriously.
Or, more likely, it is the rest of his comment that you are avoiding that explains your reason for reviving this discussion:
Pretty sure we are being trolled once again. Hardy's and Given's books are problematic at best and while they may serve to reinforce someone predisposed to believe, they do not hold up well to any sort of non-biased review. But, to include Callister's book here is risible and why I think we are just being trolled again.
But, suppose you are sincere.

I’d suggest actually reading any one or more of the books I’ve mentioned. A few folks here have. Their opinions are to be valued at least to the extent that they are doing their own thinking rather than relying on the thinking/biases of Brian Stelter wannabes.
Can you give your thinking as to what exactly you found in the book to be so inspiring? People have asked you this repeatedly, and you have posted anything and everything, except for an answer. But here you are opening the thread again, so....again, what exactly did YOU personally find meaningful in Callister's book?

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Delete

Not flippin' worth it.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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MG: Keep chugging your ale Shirts.
Gawd did the church teach you nothing of value ya dope? One does not chug Ale... one sips its cool refreshment of its ice cold goodness on a blistering hot day.... your Mormon bias once again misleads you, whether in science, books, or drinks...
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Classic MG. So over it.

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mentalgymnast
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:36 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:55 pm
Do you see yourself ever questioning the precepts and teachings of the Four Horsemen of Atheism? When they speak do you, generally speaking, give priority/meaning to their words over a believing scientist? If so, why?
:lol:

Treating the so-called four horsemen like they are an analog for Mormon Apostles is so MG. Good Jesus that's funny.
People don’t make decisions in a vacuum. Religionists or Nones.We are all influenced by those we trust.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:55 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:25 am


A deeply profound point. The fear and paranoia in so much religion, even unnecessarily has led to warped thinking and skewed logic for millenia, which skewing is anchored in their already paranoid and skewed scripture which they imagine is free from taint and problem when it comes to visceral reality. MG is so biased he cannot even see how badly skewed his own world view is... And hence it must needs be that there is an opposition (enemy) in all things in his little mind, or else there is no reality. God has devil, Dr. Peterson has Scratch, Midlgey has Moksha, so MG needs to be a good Mormon and get an enemy. That's where secular humanists come in. Hey, if they are evil to an apostle then MG feels perfectly justified in accepting they are evil in general. Who is he to question an apostle? An apostle of the Holy Jesus Christ lord of the universe?! When an apostle opines, MG snaps to all ears, attention, and belief.
As a secular humanist do you see yourself as having an “enemy” and/or opposition? Religionists maybe? If so, do you feel it your duty to stand up for your truth? Are you biased in your agnostic/atheistic worldview to the point that you are not able to recognize any possible ‘chinks’ in your protective armor of unbelief?

Do you see yourself ever questioning the precepts and teachings of the Four Horsemen of Atheism? When they speak do you, generally speaking, give priority/meaning to their words over a believing scientist? If so, why?

Do you see a theistic worldview as being inherently dangerous? If you could wave a magic wand and turn everyone into a secular humanist would you do so?

Regards,
MG
Goes both ways.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 am
honorentheos wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:36 pm


:lol:

Treating the so-called four horsemen like they are an analog for Mormon Apostles is so MG. Good Jesus that's funny.
People don’t make decisions in a vacuum. Religionists or Nones.We are all influenced by those we trust.

Regards,
MG
Of the four, Dennett is the only actual scientist though I believe Harris has been pursuing neuroscience since their debate days. When it comes to matters of biology I respect Dennett's expertise. If a scientist who claims belief in God is speaking on the subject of his field I'm pretty likely to be interested and respect what he has to say on those topics narrowly. When experts - believing and otherwise - demand their views be privileged based on their expertise in a particular area outside the subject being discussed to claim added weight and credential to their opinion, I look find that suspect. The value of their opinion in those cases has to be fully demonstrated in the information they present just like everyone else. Their expertise in an outside field isn't magically carried over and shouldn't be treated like it does. And a person who makes a habit of it should spend time reflecting on why they do that when it's clearly unwarranted.

Authority isn't a mantel outside Mormonism view about priesthood and Ph.Ds judging from the FARMS crowds view of the matter. A person with a Ph.D in physics who says they believe in God because they feel physics is compatible with their belief is free to share that opinion and why they view the two as compatible. But that's all it is. Just as a journalist who claims faith is dangerous in the age of nuclear weapons is free to make their case for why they believe it. But again, both are just opinions.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Lemmie wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Can you give your thinking as to what exactly you found in the book to be so inspiring? People have asked you this repeatedly, and you have posted anything and everything, except for an answer. But here you are opening the thread again, so....again, what exactly did YOU personally find meaningful in Callister's book?
I found his arguments for the bases he covered thorough. Did he cover all the bases? No. But those that he did, he did quite well.

For example, the first chapter is called Man Made or God Given? Did Joseph write it? Did someone else write it? Did Joseph plagiarize it or borrow from other sources? Did Joseph suffer from a mental disorder and this gave Joseph the incentive and drive to write the BofM?

Callister tackles each one of these theories and shows why they are not completely satisfying. Am I going to sit here and transcribe all of his arguments for you? No. That’s why I suggest and suggested you personally read the book. I doubt that you will because your mind is already settled that the BofM can’t be of Divine origin.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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That sounds like a complete waste of time so you're right. I won't read it. There are so many valuable books I'd like to read, many of which I won't be able to get to because life is short and the number of books worth reading numerous. There just isn't time to waste on garbage like an apologetic rehash why the Book of Mormon can't be explained easily. What it also can't be is meaningfully and accurately placed in the ancient Americas so it's pointless as far as books go.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:48 am
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Can you give your thinking as to what exactly you found in the book to be so inspiring? People have asked you this repeatedly, and you have posted anything and everything, except for an answer. But here you are opening the thread again, so....again, what exactly did YOU personally find meaningful in Callister's book?
For example, the first chapter is called Man Made or God Given? Did Joseph write it? Did someone else write it? Did Joseph plagiarize it or borrow from other sources? Did Joseph suffer from a mental disorder and this gave Joseph the incentive and drive to write the BofM?
Actually, it’s not, you are referring to the second chapter. And yes, the part you mention was based on his devotional and your points were exactly listed in multiple news articles and reviews. For example:

Brother Callister highlighted some of the claims against the Book of Mormon's divine validity. Critics' claims included Joseph's ignorance and lack of education, Joseph conspiring with someone else who had the skills and intelligence to write the Book of Mormon, the idea that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from other books and that Joseph suffered from a mental illness.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... fvyzSEZxXw
i was asking about your take, not a restatement of facts from reviews. But don’t worry about it, consider my request retracted. There’s no point in repeating your non-response strategy.

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:19 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:48 am


For example, the first chapter is called Man Made or God Given? Did Joseph write it? Did someone else write it? Did Joseph plagiarize it or borrow from other sources? Did Joseph suffer from a mental disorder and this gave Joseph the incentive and drive to write the BofM?
Actually, it’s not, you are referring to the second chapter. And yes, the part you mention was based on his devotional and your points were exactly listed in multiple news articles and reviews. For example:

Brother Callister highlighted some of the claims against the Book of Mormon's divine validity. Critics' claims included Joseph's ignorance and lack of education, Joseph conspiring with someone else who had the skills and intelligence to write the Book of Mormon, the idea that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from other books and that Joseph suffered from a mental illness.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... fvyzSEZxXw
i was asking about your take, not a restatement of facts from reviews.
Yep, you’re right. Second chapter. I am restating the subheadings in chapter 2. I wasn’t looking at the reviews. I had the book in my lap. And again, my take is that he stated plainly why none of these Book of Mormon origin stories are completely satisfying. If one is open to the possibility of there being a God, it’s the divine origin story with plates and an angel that actually make the most sense. I think that’s why a lot of people go that direction, gold plates, etc. The alternatives, on the whole, don’t do justice to the Book of Mormon narrative, it’s complexity and message/testimony of Christ.

If one is already biased towards a disbelief in God and in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, isn’t it rather obvious that the Bookof Mormon is dead in the water at the get go, at least as far as that person is concerned? Isn’t it a given that those that would be open to gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon would be those that are also open to believing in God and in Christ?

The critic’s arguments against the Book of Mormon that Callister lists in chapter 2 are going to be much more attractive to someone who already has determined the unlikelihood of there being a creator God and/or that Jesus Christ isn’t the Savior of the world.

That seems to be a no brainer.

My suggestion to read these three books that I’ve recommended are pointed mainly to those that do believe or or are open to belief in God and in Jesus Christ as being the only begotten son of God and Savior of the world. I have little or no expectation that vocal majority of agnostics and/or atheists on this board would have any real motivation or reason to spend much, if any, time reading these books and really giving them any serious consideration.

Strong the bias among those here is, yes.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:10 pm
MG: Keep chugging your ale Shirts.
Gawd did the church teach you nothing of value ya dope? One does not chug Ale... one sips its cool refreshment of its ice cold goodness on a blistering hot day.... your Mormon bias once again misleads you, whether in science, books, or drinks...
My thought exactly. How can you have a serious conversation with Mormons who believe John Belushi's Bluto is an accurate representation of the adult drinking culture?
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Lemmie wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Can you give your thinking as to what exactly you found in the book to be so inspiring? People have asked you this repeatedly, and you have posted anything and everything, except for an answer. But here you are opening the thread again, so....again, what exactly did YOU personally find meaningful in Callister's book?
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:48 am
...For example, the first chapter is called Man Made or God Given? Did Joseph write it? Did someone else write it? Did Joseph plagiarize it or borrow from other sources? Did Joseph suffer from a mental disorder and this gave Joseph the incentive and drive to write the BofM?
Lemmie wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:19 pm
Actually, it’s not, you are referring to the second chapter. And yes, the part you mention was based on his devotional and your points were exactly listed in multiple news articles and reviews.
...I was asking about your take, not a restatement of facts from reviews.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:53 pm

Yep, you’re right. Second chapter. I am restating the subheadings in chapter 2.
Seriously? Your “take” on the Book is to restate chapter headings? Unreal. Did you even read it? Or is it just your assignment to push it?
honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:03 pm
That sounds like a complete waste of time...
Exactly.

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:10 pm
MG: Keep chugging your ale Shirts.
Gawd did the church teach you nothing of value ya dope? One does not chug Ale... one sips its cool refreshment of its ice cold goodness on a blistering hot day.... your Mormon bias once again misleads you, whether in science, books, or drinks...
Type in “chugging ale” (with the quote marks) into your search bar. It seems as though chugging ale is not out of fashion or so unusual. Maybe you need to get out more and not drink alone?

My point, made earlier, stands...pertaining to bias. Look in the mirror.

My questions went unanswered.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:40 pm


Type in “chugging ale” (with the quote marks) into your search bar. It seems as though chugging ale is not out of fashion or so unusual. Maybe you need to get out more and not drink alone?

Image
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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Image
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson

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Re: Three Powerful Books

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:53 pm
If one is open to the possibility of there being a God, it’s the divine origin story with plates and an angel that actually make the most sense.
I lost belief in the Book of Mormon while hanging onto underlying Christian belief for a number of years. Physics Guy seems to believe in God, or the possibilty of God, and doesn't share your view.

The Book of Mormon fails under the weight of the claims it's a record of a migrating people from the old world to the new. It fails under the weight of the actual evidence regarding the peoples who were here during the period it claims to cover. It fails under the weight of evidence it is thoroughly a book of the early 19th c. frontier.

Believing there may be a god doesn't suddenly make the Book of Mormon more likely to be a true story about a branch of Israel migrating across the oceans to arrive in the Americas and giving rise to an advanced civilization 2,000 years before Columbus. The facts are what they are regardless of your beliefs.
Last edited by honorentheos on Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:29 pm
Seriously? Your “take” on the Book is to restate chapter headings?
Yep. That’s where it starts.

Which one, and only one, theory do you subscribe to? We could look to see what Callister has to say on that particular theory. If you subscribe to more than one, it seems that you don’t take any one of them seriously more than the other.

Regards,
MG

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