Page 2 of 3

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 pm
by honorentheos
Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:22 pm
I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..
The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.

In their divorce documents, Vallow's ex had said something about Lori believing she was a resurrected god. And one of the family members has shared she believed at some point the kids had been turned into...zombies? Possessed by demons? It was something along the lines of believing that they no longer had souls due to evil forces fighting against her. It seemed like this discovery was only a matter of time as the investigators seemed to be tracking Vallow and Daybell but from a distance after they were found in Hawaii but otherwise not rushing to ensure they could adequately build the case. That suggests at some point they weren't acting to find and save the kids. Who knows what they believed with good reason but lacked enough evidence to press charges. It doesn't seem like they viewed the kids as being alive and at risk for some time, though.

Regardless, it's a terrible series of events. You have a couple of people who believe God gave them a red pill that revealed they were central to the end time narrative, chosen and special, and essentially Neos to our "matrix". Offered that chance to be Neo on the one hand, or one of billions of other insignificant coppertops, they took the red pill and started seeing events around them as significant in ways only they could understand. Now, two kids are dead plus at least three adults quite possibly removed from interfering with their important, unique, divinely bestowed purpose.

I'll be blunt about why I think that while this may be more extreme as an example, it is built on common escapist religious themes that I find revolting. How many times has a believer told non-believers they think life without God or religion would be meaningless? That people who have left religion behind must be miserable or live shallow, empty lives? That comes from red pill mentalities. You don't think there's a higher purpose, a divine plan, that you are special in some way? That's blue pill thinking for coppertops. Red pill thinkers have seen the matrix for what it is, hate the matrix, and long for Zion. Chosing to reject God belief is choosing to take the blue pill, to be one of billions of insignificant people whose lives have no meaning "in the grand scheme of it all". It's not enough to create meaning in a life with friends and family, a career and a life lived well. Or lived, period. That's depressing. So, while Daybell and Vallow are on the far end of the spectrum, the spectrum itself is partially to blame for all the Daybells and Vallows becoming what they become.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:22 pm
by Lemmie
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:22 pm
I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..
The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.

In their divorce documents, Vallow's ex had said something about Lori believing she was a resurrected god. And one of the family members has shared she believed at some point the kids had been turned into...zombies? Possessed by demons? It was something along the lines of believing that they no longer had souls due to evil forces fighting against her. It seemed like this discovery was only a matter of time as the investigators seemed to be tracking Vallow and Daybell but from a distance after they were found in Hawaii but otherwise not rushing to ensure they could adequately build the case. That suggests at some point they weren't acting to find and save the kids. Who knows what they believed with good reason but lacked enough evidence to press charges. It doesn't seem like they viewed the kids as being alive and at risk for some time, though.

Regardless, it's a terrible series of events. You have a couple of people who believe God gave them a red pill that revealed they were central to the end time narrative, chosen and special, and essentially Neos to our "matrix". Offered that chance to be Neo on the one hand, or one of billions of other insignificant coppertops, they took the red pill and started seeing events around them as significant in ways only they could understand. Now, two kids are dead plus at least three adults quite possibly removed from interfering with their important, unique, divinely bestowed purpose.

I'll be blunt about why I think that while this may be more extreme as an example, it is built on common escapist religious themes that I find revolting. How many times has a believer told non-believers they think life without God or religion would be meaningless? That people who have left religion behind must be miserable or live shallow, empty lives? That comes from red pill mentalities. You don't think there's a higher purpose, a divine plan, that you are special in some way? That's blue pill thinking for coppertops. Red pill thinkers have seen the matrix for what it is, hate the matrix, and long for Zion. Chosing to reject God belief is choosing to take the blue pill, to be one of billions of insignificant people whose lives have no meaning "in the grand scheme of it all". It's not enough to create meaning in a life with friends and family, a career and a life lived well. Or lived, period. That's depressing. So, while Daybell and Vallow are on the far end of the spectrum, the spectrum itself is partially to blame for all the Daybells and Vallows becoming what they become.
Extremely well said, honorentheos, thank you. It is a horrifying story. One can only hope the children were mostly unaware of their final plight, and did not suffer at the end.

Regarding the spectrum itself and the damage, here is today's offering, from a local spectrum believer:
The right question is whether [two specific persons who are not LDS ] [are] equal or superior to ordinary faithful Latter-day Saints?

Or is someone like [a non LDS poster with established medicalc credentials] even competent, or honest, or an academic/scholar?
No words. It is a shameful statement to make.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:54 pm
by Jersey Girl
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:22 pm
I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..
The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.
Be patient. It has only just begun and we have no idea where it will end.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:36 pm
by honorentheos
To be honest, Jersey Girl, I'm not interested in voyeuristic watching the case. I'm pretty sure whatever happens, Daybell and Vallow will spend a fair amount of time in prison. They're terrible people and I don't care to give terrible people any more of my time and life than absolutely necessary because it can't be completely avoided. Vallow used to live here in Arizona and her ex was killed here. Because of that her backstory has been in the news more than his, even making headlines every so often. I don't know much about him, but she was apparently off the deep end before marrying Daybell.

But what struck me about this case is how thin the line is between someone like Vallow or Daybell believing they are some kind of herald of God ushering in the second coming on one hand, and what is generally acceptable or even admired beliefs about the necessity of being "in the world but not off the world". Lemmie is exactly right that the Sic et Non crowd exemplifies just another range of options on the spectrum of red pill thinking. Someday, everyone who is engaging with them will get their comeupance and then, oh then, everyone will be sorted into their proper places. It in turn excuses all kinds of behaviour because the purpose of existence is to leave the matrix and, for the chosen, dwell in Zion. Or whatever that book claimed about the Mormon afterlife (ETA: Added Upon) that gave Peterson his hardon for Mormonism that the scriptures apparently couldn't.

I feel for the family, for the grandparents who seem like good people who genuinely held out hope the kids would be found alive. It's a terrible event. But also, the world is a constant stream of stories, good, bad, and in-between. I would be a liar to say I feel personal pain or loss. I can imagine how much it would hurt if it somehow was much closer to me, and through that feel for the family, for the lost futures that will never be for either Tylee or JJ. But there are limits to how genuine that can really be without becoming performance. I'd rather not.

In the end, Sic et Non and Daybell/Vallow (as people) are of equal importance to me. That being, barely worth noticing outside of the cautionary message they convey that thinking oneself to be special is a sign one should take a hard look at why one feels the need to get sucked into that trap to begin with? And back away. Red pill? Blue pill? ____ off. Just live the gift life is the best you can and be grateful for the experience, for those you get to share it with. Maybe try to add to it, to do good as one can, to love the true, to appreciate and perhaps add to the beautiful. Just like everyone else can, and collectively create something that has meaning here, now, and for however long there may be others able to remember that until there isn't anyone who does. That's still pretty miraculous. Who needs godlike power and a special role in gods plan when one has a life and a chance to live it already? Given the odds and conditions in the vast, vast majority of the universe, that's pretty special. And we get to share that with every other person we interact with on any given day. That's a lot of inherent meaning. So much, it'd be a shame to waste it.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
by Lemmie
honorentheos wrote:
Just live the gift life is the best you can and be grateful for the experience, for those you get to share it with. Maybe try to add to it, to do good as one can, to love the true, to appreciate and perhaps add to the beautiful. Just like everyone else can, and collectively create something that has meaning here, now, and for however long there may be others able to remember that until there isn't anyone who does. That's still pretty miraculous. Who needs godlike power and a special role in gods plan when one has a life and a chance to live it already? Given the odds and conditions in the vast, vast majority of the universe, that's pretty special. And we get to share that with every other person we interact with on any given day. That's a lot of inherent meaning. So much, it'd be a shame to waste it.
Thank you, honor. Your posts like this are treasures.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:16 pm
by Physics Guy
"Red pill thinking" is a nice metaphor (for people who have seen The Matrix) for willingness to believe that things are somehow really very different from how they seem to be. And red pill thinking can certainly be dangerous. In cases like this one it's hard to imagine how anyone could have acted like this without believing the crazy things that these people seem to have believed.

I'm afraid it's not as easy to pin down what all went wrong in this case as just to blame it all on red pill thinking, though, because red pill thinking is often good. Things really are very different from how they usually seem. The evidence that can persuade one to believe this is often quite abstract, and finding it almost always requires investments of effort that don't make sense without a fair amount of red pill thinking in the first place. Believing in atoms? Curved space? Viruses? Evolution? That the tiny twinkling lights in the sky are huge suns far away? That the planet is round? All of those seem to me to have come from red pill thinking initially, and frankly some of them still take a fair amount now.

Believing that one is a prophet is clearly not the same as believing that this Earth was also here hundreds of millions of years ago with rearranged continents and all different life forms. I'm just not sure that "red pill" versus "blue pill" is an accurate way to capture the fact that one belief is a stupid fantasy and the other is astonishing truth.

I'm more inclined to put the blame on the egocentrism. The problem isn't the pill. It's thinking that You Are The One.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:29 pm
by Mormonicious
Saddest of all is the Grandparent begged the S*** F****** for their grandkids. They in essence said go do whatever perverted Mormon s*** you want just let us have the kids. STUPID ____ Mormons!

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:56 pm
by honorentheos
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Thank you, honor. Your posts like this are treasures.
Thanks, Lemmie. Hope things are well in your part of the country.

Off topic, but in the zeitgeist so I'll post it - I'm curious if you're able to share anything about how your University is planning to deal with classes this fall? Also, I'd be interested in your opinion on something. My daughter is a sophomore this year and last year ended ok but left her feeling like school might be messed up at the moment and worried she might be better off holding off on anything other than generals in the fall so she doesn't miss out on core curriculum info. Her thought being it's better to need an extra semester to graduate than it is to pay for a discount semester that hamstrings her education for the next two years. I can't answer her because I don't know but agreed it was a great question and worth being concerned about.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:03 pm
by honorentheos
Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:16 pm
I'm more inclined to put the blame on the egocentrism. The problem isn't the pill. It's thinking that You Are The One.
I agree with this in the broad sense it's about ego. I doubt anyone starts out thinking they are The One. It's a process. And, people in that process are on a specrrum. I guess it's what I mean by red pill thinking more so than questioning the obvious nature of things. It's one thing when a person feels a deep sense of humility and universal concern for others that is an outgrowth of their beliefs. It's quite another when ones belief system, whatever it may be, is used to perpetuate a narrative that a person is in a privileged class of people with special knowledge or, even more extreme, uniquely special that has an important part to play in some big plan. Or, knows the government is X, Y, Z. Or is better than the people around them. Or whatever it may be.

Skepticism can be egotistical or driven by a form of humility as well ( "I could be wrong, and don't know as much as I'd like to think I do"). No religion required.

The issue is with this idea the world is corrupted and requires those who would be clean to remain separate from it. At its worst, that separation turns to cleansing. Both are sick, IMO, and concerning. One can see both sides in the New Testament and in the stories it contains about Jesus. Different authors emphasized aspects of his life that, On the other hand, viewed the Jewish people as needing to be clean from the corruption of the Romans and religious hypocrites. But on the other, many of those stories include contrasting the religious leadership with Jesus and his willingness to minister and associate with those who weren't considered clean. Personally, I don't think this reflects on the historic Jesus but on the debates that gave rise to modern Christianity. It also means the seeds of both are present in the religious tradition.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:52 am
by Physics Guy
Yeah, I think there can easily be a dangerous synergy between egotism and world-view flexibility. The same kind of thinking that lets you consider that the world might revolve around the sun can let you consider that it might revolve around you. I reckon that enough egotism can corrupt anything, but there may well be people who could have kept their egotism reined in to sane levels if they didn't find it so easy to reimagine the whole world in their own image.

I guess I just see the point of intervention as being the step where it starts being too much about me, rather than the point at which I get out of step with reality. One of Jesus's odder parables is the one about the wheat and the tares. It seems to say that even God is reluctant to try to nip things in the bud, because too much good can get lost by trying to prevent evil too early. Sprouts from different seeds can be too entangled to distinguish in early stages.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:49 pm
by honorentheos
https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/06/r ... ge-letter/

In support of a runaway ego leading to trouble, the link above is to a letter posted by Vallows friend that gets into the weird beliefs they had. Apparently it included belief in being a reincarnated person (multiple mortal probations) with Daybell claiming he and Vallow were married to one another at multiple points in history including when he was James the lesser. She believed she had also been married to Moroni...because his being 15 when the destruction of the Nepites was in full swing escaped her. Or, she was into young dudes and they had to get married to remain chaste and, you know, the Lamanites could kill us at anytime so it would be a shame to die without ever...well, you know.

It does seem like at least some of this distills down to Daybell trying to get Vallow in bed, though. So, ego vs. sex? Hmmm.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:31 am
by Physics Guy
That's an awfully long letter mostly about the author. I started skimming pretty early, when she complained that people weren't listening to her important preaching about humility. Her TLDR message seems to be that there's a lot of self-importance among religious preppers. I guess the irony in how she delivers this message only makes the point more clearly.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:43 am
by honorentheos
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:31 am
That's an awfully long letter mostly about the author. I started skimming pretty early, when she complained that people weren't listening to her important preaching about humility. Her TLDR message seems to be that there's a lot of self-importance among religious preppers. I guess the irony in how she delivers this message only makes the point more clearly.
Exactly. She points out, while demonstrating, the faces of egocentric spirituality while making token appeals to humility.

The difference between how far she went with it compared with Daybell/Vallow is miles apart according to the law. But in many ways she's barely any different.

Its interesting to compare these modern day Mormon "preppers" with early Mormons. For example, these letters from Ezra Booth dating to the beginning of the church contain many of the same sentiments and language:

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Ezra_Booth_letters

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:30 pm
by Jersey Girl
For those interested in the case/investigation details. Documents are at this link. Notice the suspected involvement of Alex Cox, deceased.

https://www.kivitv.com/news/east-idaho- ... jjs-bodies

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:25 pm
by Lemmie
honorentheos wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:56 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Thank you, honor. Your posts like this are treasures.
Thanks, Lemmie. Hope things are well in your part of the country.

Off topic, but in the zeitgeist so I'll post it - I'm curious if you're able to share anything about how your University is planning to deal with classes this fall? Also, I'd be interested in your opinion on something. My daughter is a sophomore this year and last year ended ok but left her feeling like school might be messed up at the moment and worried she might be better off holding off on anything other than generals in the fall so she doesn't miss out on core curriculum info. Her thought being it's better to need an extra semester to graduate than it is to pay for a discount semester that hamstrings her education for the next two years. I can't answer her because I don't know but agreed it was a great question and worth being concerned about.
Honorentheos, I am so sorry I missed your question in this post! My apologies. My school has still not settled on a plan, so I’m still up in the air, but I also have one in the middle of college. His school is tentatively having in person classes, but already planning to keep them to a much smaller size, which also affects ability to get into his major requirements. Also, many courses will still be online. I don’t know what to recommend, but he is leaning toward a semester off, and working. I am not opposed to that, especially since there seems to be no break in tuition at his school for what will be a second disrupted semester. Taking an extra semester to graduate is not a bad plan, imo. This is such an odd time and things are still changing so much. Ten years from now, or even five, slowing down for a semester will have no negative impact and may allow these kids time to think through and navigate a situation that I think will effectively change the value and process of higher education forever.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:44 am
by honorentheos
Thanks, Lemmie. I appreciate your thoughts. It's helpful to hear your perspective and know it's not just us.

Our daughter decided to only take a few online generals this fall semester to get some classes done that she felt worked in an online format. Instead she is doing other things as well including volunteering with a school group and club that she feels will help her in the long run. It sounded like a good idea to me.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:03 am
by Physics Guy
In Germany the semesters are winter and summer instead of fall and spring, so our current semester has been going since April and has a few more weeks still to run. Except for a few essential oral exams it's all online. It's actually quite a bit more work teaching this way, but I shouldn't complain. Teaching loads for professors in Germany are lighter than they are in most places.

I really think that what we're offering is at least as effective for learning as our usual lectures. I'm planning to keep some of these approaches even after we return to normal operation. All the real learning of theoretical physics happens when you're working through the calculations for yourself, anyway; all that any instructor or material can ever give you is a push. According to our students' association, though, the big problem for the students seems to be motivation. When you're alone at home with a screen that opens onto the entire internet, it's tough to make yourself focus on that dull little corner of the internet that contains your studies. It's easy to tell yourself that you'll download the stuff and watch it all tomorrow. Motivation is always a problem for university students who are usually living independently for the first time in their lives, but dragging yourself to a lecture hall at a specific time is a concrete task that also involves meeting your peers.

Here there is no tuition. Flat zero, for everyone, always; tuition doesn't exist. Free education for everyone, as far as they can go even right up through doctorates, is an investment the Bundesrepublik makes in its own future. So if this lockdown semester doesn't work out, students here are not wasting their money.

But even here it seems not to be easy to make an online semester worthwhile. Scaling back or just hitting Pause and Fast Forward might make sense.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:21 am
by Chap
Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:03 am
Here there is no tuition. Flat zero, for everyone, always; tuition doesn't exist.
I think I am not the only non-US English speaker to whom this reads very strangely. For people like me, 'tuition' simply means 'teaching', and you obviously don't mean that a student in Germany does not get given any teaching!

But it appears that for you 'tuition' means 'tuition FEES'. Got it.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:51 am
by Res Ipsa
Chap wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:21 am
Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:03 am
Here there is no tuition. Flat zero, for everyone, always; tuition doesn't exist.
I think I am not the only non-US English speaker to whom this reads very strangely. For people like me, 'tuition' simply means 'teaching', and you obviously don't mean that a student in Germany does not get given any teaching!

But it appears that for you 'tuition' means 'tuition FEES'. Got it.
Interesting. I'd never heard the word used that way before. US dictionaries seem to include both as acceptable uses.

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:49 am
by Lemmie
An update, of sorts:
Lori Vallow and her husband Chad Daybell are both behind bars on the day they reportedly believe Jesus Christ will return to earth and only 144,000 people on the planet will be spared from unspecified doom.

As CrimeOnline previously reported, Vallow’s former, now-deceased husband Charles Vallow said in divorce documents filed in January 2019 that his wife had become obsessed with bizarre religious beliefs and insisted she was a “transmuted being who cannot taste death sent by God to lead the 144,000 into the Millennium.”

According to court documents cited by Business Insider, Charles Vallow said his wife believed she was “receiving spiritual revelations and visions to help her gather and prepare those chosen to live in the New Jerusalem after the Great War as prophesied in the Book of Revelations,” purportedly set to begin on July 22, 2020.

Lori Vallow’s embrace of extreme religious views appear to have arisen during the time she became acquainted with Chad Daybell, who is reportedly a proponent of the doomsday scenario. When they met in 2018, Daybell was a prominent member of a so-called end-days prepper community known as “Preparing a People.”

https://www.crimeonline.com/2020/07/22/ ... y-22-2020/
And an unusual final statement for a straight news piece.

Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell are both due back in court on separate dates in early August, provided the world has not ended before then.
:lol: :lol:

Re: Human remains found on Daybell propery

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:03 pm
by Jersey Girl
I've got about 3 hours before I meet my doomsday end. I just want to say how much I've enjoyed most of you here. I do forgive those who were right PITA's on this board just taking up usable space. You know who you are. Let's not forget those who are simply FOS. You probably don't even know you're FOS and that's okay. I forgive you, too. For those who were intentionally FOS. Screw you guys. The pedantic s-hits of the board. Nobody likes you. Screw you, too. And last but not least, for the intellectually honest, those with a kick ass sense of humor,the true artists among us, the animal lovers, the tree huggers, the star gazers, and especially those who put me on the intellectual ropes, I thank you from the bottom of my soon-to-be eternally zombified little heart. :eek:

See you on the other side.

Or not.

Jersey Girl