DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

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Doctor Scratch
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DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor Scratch »

It would seem that "stalker-ish" behavior is in full swing this year with the Mopologists. First we had Prof. Midgley, traveling to New Zealand in order to harass Gina Colvin, and settling for accosting her husband--something that Midgley has boasted about repeatedly. Now, though, Dan Peterson himself has trained his sights on one of his most hated enemies: the Heartlander known as Jonathan Neville, who has been the principal target of the blogger "Peter Pan" for a couple of years now. Here's the opening paragraph of Peterson's post:
Sic et Non wrote:I very seldom think about “Heartland” models of the geography of the Book of Mormon, let alone about Jonathan Neville, who is an extremely vocal proponent of a “Heartland” point of view. (He is particularly exercised over the location of the ancient Hill Cumorah.) I rarely if ever post anything of my own replying to him or to “Heartland” ideas. I’m just not interested in them. I don’t think that I could pick Mr. Neville out of a police line-up. If we’ve ever met, I don’t remember it. I don’t read any of his blogs. I haven’t read any of his writing. I think that he may once have been a lawyer. But Mr. Neville apparently thinks about me fairly frequently, and plainly not with admiration. Yesterday, a friend called my attention to this recent item on the excellent Neville-Neville Land blog, which responds to an attack on me by Mr. Neville. I have to admit that, among other things, I was quite surprised at what it had to say about Mr. Neville’s biography:

“My Latest Example of Outrage Theater”
So: DCP thinks that "Peter Pan's" blog is "excellent," and expresses "surprise" at Pan's latest entry. And what does Pan's entry say? Check it out:
Peter Pan--i.e., probably Steven Smoot or Greg Smith, or somebody in that vein wrote:Honestly, though, I sincerely doubt that Neville knows what an ad hominem fallacy actually is. Ad hominem is attacking the person instead of responding to their argument.

For example, it would be an ad hominem fallacy for me to write, “You can’t trust anything Jonathan Neville says; after all, he once ran a quack cross-border medical clinic that injected people with urine to cure their cancer and was shut down because the Federal Trade Commission took him to court and threatened him with a huge fine.” That statement may be true, but it has nothing to do with Neville’s claims about Book of Mormon geography and Church history; that’s why this blog focuses solely on Neville’s claims, not his person.
The post contains a series of links to what appears to be an authentic court document, showing that, indeed, Neville was taken to court by the FTC. Well, you have to admit: that's unfortunate. And shame on Neville if he was truly guilty. (I don't see any indication of how the case was resolved...) But you can't help but notice the hypocrisy here. How and why is it okay for Peterson and PeterPan to post links to court documents, but posting links to tax documents showing that Peterson lied about his compensation for Mopologetics is soul-crushingly horrific, and the source of nearly unending weltschmerz? In fact, Pahoran, Peterson, and others have characterized the unearthing of Mopologetic tax documents as 'stalking,' so it's pretty hard to see how this latest bit from Pan--whose blog Peterson characterizes as "excellent" (and this is to say nothing of the fact that Pan uses what Prof. Midgley calls "a phony handle"--as anything less than full-blown "stalking." Plus, Neville's alleged quackery has nothing to do with Mormonism, with Mormon Interpreter, or with the Heartland model. Peterson has challenged Moksha, Dr. Shades and others, claiming that he holds to a higher standard on "Sic et Non"--e.g., by saying, in effect, "I would *never* do the stuff that happens on your board! For example, I would never dig up documents showing wrongdoing!" Except that now he has: such a document has been prominently linked to on "Sic et Non," and has been given a ringing endorsement by Peterson himself.

At base, there is little more that you can do other than shrug: this is what the Mopologists do. They are smear artists and hypocrites, and nothing will change that, it seems. Just look at the disingenuous way that Peterson wraps up his post:
DCP wrote:Whenever, as now, I do think about Jonathan Neville, I worry. I worry because he apparently has a following, and because he’s extremely critical not merely of evil people like me and even of employees in the Missionary Department, Historical Department, and other offices at the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Utah — which scarcely matters in the eternal scheme of things — but because he’s increasingly critical of the leaders of the Church themselves. In itself, the question of the location of ancient Book of Mormon Cumorah is of, at most, secondary importance. That’s not what’s at issue. I worry that Mr. Neville is heading, whether deliberately or not, toward the creation of a schismatic faction within the Church, and that he will ultimately lead at least some faithful believers away from full fellowship with the Saints. I hope that this isn’t true, and I hope that it never happens. But I see clouds on the horizon.
This actually sounds like a thinly-veiled threat to me. Neville probably ought to be worried, if he values his Church membership--and not because of his views. He needs to be worried because, based on this, it looks as if the Mopologists have painted a target on his back, and that they are going to aggressively try to get him excommunicated. (Note that no links are provided to support the claims that Neville is "extremely critical" of the various stakeholders he names.) It will be interesting to watch what unfolds in the coming months.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

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So. Wait. An anonymous coward posting anonymously digs up dirt on an enemy (that is, after all, how Mopologists deem anyone who doesn’t fall in line with their dogmatic heresies), and not a peep from the peanut gallery about the whole anonymity thing? I mean, they’ve only spent decades squealing like stuck pigs about anonymity, and have bent over backward to expose the identities of those they hate - and look what they do with any crumb of ‘intel’ they can pluck! Absolute hypocritical degenerates. Also, you gotta love how Mr. Peterson simultaneously slanders Neville’s reputation through an anonymous cohort while making himself the victim. He really has that shtick down pat. Victimology 201.

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:11 am
So. Wait. An anonymous coward posting anonymously digs up dirt on an enemy (that is, after all, how Mopologists deem anyone who doesn’t fall in line with their dogmatic heresies), and not a peep from the peanut gallery about the whole anonymity thing? I mean, they’ve only spent decades squealing like stuck pigs about anonymity, and have bent over backward to expose the identities of those they hate - and look what they do with any crumb of ‘intel’ they can pluck! Absolute hypocritical degenerates. Also, you gotta love how Mr. Peterson simultaneously slanders Neville’s reputation through an anonymous cohort while making himself the victim. He really has that shtick down pat. Victimology 201.

- Doc

Regarding the double standard used on the anonymity thing, here’s Pan’s priceless retort from last summer:
First, we are not “anonymous”; we are pseudonymous. We want the argument to be about Jonathan Neville’s claims and tactics, not personalities.

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2019 ... -will.html
[bolding added]

How laughable is that? Do these guys not think before they post?

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

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Ideeho, “Wait. Did I read the above link correctly—Neville was charged by the F.T.C. (and settled for $4 million, waived because of apparent financial issues) with running a medical clinic that injected people with insulin to starve tumors? Maybe Trump could hire him to work on an injectable bleach procedure.....”

Peter Pan -> Ideeho, “His medical science appears to be on par with his anthropology, archeology, geography, and exegesis.”

One will notice now that Mr. Peterson oh-so-accidentally opened up Peter Pandora’s box of anonymous attacks on Neville the commenters have begun to engage in wild speculation about Neville’s character, thus poisoning the well regarding his Heartland model. Gee, it’s almost like Mr. Peterson is full of ____ about not following Neville, not following Pan’s blog, and making a blog post where he’d be oh so surprised his cowardly anonymous posters would attack Neville’s IRL’s activities.

- Doc

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by moksha »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 3:30 pm
One will notice now that Mr. Peterson oh-so-accidentally opened up Peter Pandora’s box of anonymous attacks on Neville the commenters have begun to engage in wild speculation about Neville’s character, thus poisoning the well regarding his Heartland model.
- Doc
This is acceptable because they are the resplendent Piranha Palace rather than a lowly sty.


Peter Pan -> Ideeho, “His medical science appears to be on par with his anthropology, archeology, geography, and exegesis.”
Those same fields of study are frequently cited in proving deficiencies in Book of Mormon claims.

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

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very revealing.
I haven’t read any of his writing
right. But he reads anti-Neville literature anytime "a friend" points it out to him. So he doesn't actually know Neville's beliefs about geography as he's never read any of that, and forms his opinions based on anti-lit. How is this any different from Christians who never read the book of Mormon but believe the anti-lit their friends give them?

I challenge Coach P. to put the same amount of reading and prayer into Neville's writings that he expects non-Mormons to put into investigating the Book of Mormon.

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Gadianton »

Those same fields of study are frequently cited in proving deficiencies in Book of Mormon claims.
Yeah it's pretty hilarious to see the junk science crew at Sic et Non take the high ground, as if what they've done, and what Interpreter has published, has any credibility whatsoever in the real world.

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by kairos »

Peterson has held the two Cumorah scenario for decades ( he told me that he did not know any BYU employed professor who supported a one
cumorah theory-but this was like i say decades ago). So JN is irritating the two Cumorah crowd and along with Rodney of Meldrum has drawn a following that believes the hill in New York is THE hill.
anyone got a shovel or tried to walk from New York to central america lately?
k

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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:47 pm
very revealing.
I haven’t read any of his writing
right. But he reads anti-Neville literature anytime "a friend" points it out to him. So he doesn't actually know Neville's beliefs about geography as he's never read any of that, and forms his opinions based on anti-lit. How is this any different from Christians who never read the book of Mormon but believe the anti-lit their friends give them?

I challenge Coach P. to put the same amount of reading and prayer into Neville's writings that he expects non-Mormons to put into investigating the Book of Mormon.
Indeed, Dean Robbers. There are some awfully strange things going on in Prof. P.'s living room.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

kairos, "Peterson has held the two Cumorah scenario for decades..."

Oh, well, gee. He's done SO MUCH WORK on his theory!! SMH.

- Doc

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Philo Sofee »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:47 pm
very revealing.
I haven’t read any of his writing
right. But he reads anti-Neville literature anytime "a friend" points it out to him. So he doesn't actually know Neville's beliefs about geography as he's never read any of that, and forms his opinions based on anti-lit. How is this any different from Christians who never read the book of Mormon but believe the anti-lit their friends give them?

I challenge Coach P. to put the same amount of reading and prayer into Neville's writings that he expects non-Mormons to put into investigating the Book of Mormon.
:lol: :lol: :lol: He doesn't need to actually read it, he already KNOWS it's malarky.........oh... wait....
I am just soooooooooo grateful I no longer slobber over the literal silliness of what Peterson writes and does these days. I am virtually forced to acknowledge the miracle of being saved from the cesspool of Mopologetic hypocrisy. How did I actually get so lucky? I am not kidding! I am a very fortunate (and totally rejoicing!!!) man these days!

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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor Scratch »

He's flailing around in desperation at this point. We have absolutely stung him on the ass. LOL! C'mon, Dan: just admit how much you hate Jonathan Neville, and how much you wish he would be excommunicated! How good would you feel about that?

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Dr Moore
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Dr Moore »

Hi Doctor,

With campus closed for the semester, I've taken advantage of our remote learning model to enjoy an extended stay at my brother's ranch in Montana. I am happy to report that the invasive fox population is down and, much to my joy, my students' grades are all up!

The latter is nothing on my account, but due entirely to the phenomenal vision of our Dean. As we all remember, last summer Dean Robbers shocked the campus by allocating fully 40% of the capital budget to digital platform technologies: creating a virtual reality construct for the entire campus, VR headsets for all students, bolstering cyber security, and deploying technical design and simulation software to enable realistic laboratory experiences for all of our science students. What a bold move it was, and I do recall murmuring sarcastically about this "public relations stunt" forcing my department to delay upgrading my office network from low baud modem to a 20 Mbps Cat 4 link. I put on a happy face for all of the extra work in Fall semester, testing these tools and pedagogy on newly admitted online-only students and select on-campus volunteers. But then all of *this* happened. And not only has the campus closing gone off hitch free, I dare say my students are so pleased with the digital Cassius experience that I have received three heartfelt expressions from wealthy parent-donors wishing to establish endowed professorships in digital technologies such as machine learning, robotic automation, and artificial intelligence. What a blessing it is to be led by someone with such vision and courage!

With regard to your post here, I sense that it hits you close to home. You're so frequently condemned as a malevolent stalker for the very same behavior as is now evidently to be celebrated. I guess it all depends on the target, right? "All's fair in love and war," eh, Doctor?

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by I have a question »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:11 pm
He's flailing around in desperation at this point. We have absolutely stung him on the ass. LOL! C'mon, Dan: just admit how much you hate Jonathan Neville, and how much you wish he would be excommunicated! How good would you feel about that?
Peterson declares to have very little interest in Jonathan Neville, nor what he says. However, entering the term "Jonathan Neville" into Peterson's blog specific search engine, produces four full pages of results (at c10 blog articles per results page). Showing that Peterson has significantly more than "very little interest" in his fellow Latter-day Saint, Mr Neville, and what he has to say for himself. One could argue that Peterson actually works quite hard to promote Jonathan Neville.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

It’s utterly shocking, SHOCKING I TELLS YA, that a Mormon priesthood holder, BYU professor, and bon vivant such as Daniel C. Peterson has been outed, YET AGAIN, as a lying sack of crap.

Shocking. Utterly. *queue his moaning about being a victim in 3-2-1...*

- Doc

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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by toon »

Following the Heartland vs. Mesoamerica debate is about as entertaining as watching flat earthers argue about whether the earth is in a contained dome or whether it's an infinite flat plane. Which is to say that taken alone, the actual arguments on both side are so absurd so as to make it not worth anyone's time, but when you add in the personalities, it can be quite entertaining.

I once tried to explain the debate to a non-member, co-worker, atheist friend, who didn't have any religious upbringing, and his biggest hurdle to even understanding the debate was that people actually believed that the Book of Mormon was a historical document. Even though he understood that people have crazy religious beliefs, that those may be heavily influenced by being raised in a religious culture, etc., he still couldn't get past that.
The post contains a series of links to what appears to be an authentic court document, showing that, indeed, Neville was taken to court by the FTC. Well, you have to admit: that's unfortunate. And shame on Neville if he was truly guilty. (I don't see any indication of how the case was resolved...) But you can't help but notice the hypocrisy here. How and why is it okay for Peterson and PeterPan to post links to court documents, but posting links to tax documents showing that Peterson lied about his compensation for Mopologetics is soul-crushingly horrific, and the source of nearly unending weltschmerz?
And there's more than just one level of hypocrisy. I don't know if Neville was perpetuating some fraud or actually believed in the quackery. If the latter, then ad hominemattack on him is that you can't believe his crazy Heartland beliefs because he also holds crazy medical beliefs, but at the same time ignore our crazy Mesoamerican model beliefs. And, by the way, here's another blog entry on dowsing.

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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP Endorses Malevolent Stalking on "SeN"

Post by Doctor Scratch »

The war continues:
DCP wrote:HTTPS (aka Jonathan Neville?): "How much of the CARES Act will yours and Welch-Magleby’s 501(c)(3)s receive?"

I suspect that Brothers Welch and Magleby will receive the same amount that I will, namely absolutely nothing.

HTTPS (aka Jonathan Neville?): "Why don’t you hang out your PayPal buttons and BEG for more donations since the CARES Act “provides charitable giving incentives to donors to 501(c)(3) organizations by expanding the charitable deduction to all taxpayers for a year.“ Beg, beg, and beg some more, more and more."

The Word of Wisdom doesn't expressly forbid the use of hallucinogenic drugs, HTTPS, but they're pretty clearly a violation of its spirit. So I hope that you'll consider giving them up.

HTTPS (aka Jonathan Neville?): "This should be a great boost to your business model of priests and teachers that ought to become popular, and they ought not to labor with their hands, but they ought to be supported by the people as they Privately Interpret the Scriptures while sitting upon their Foundations while they rest their bodies and arms upon seats and breastworks of golden bank accounts high and lifted up above any other obtained by their beggings."

The by-laws of the Interpreter Foundation permit me up to $500 annually as payment for my services. I've never taken a cent. Nor has any other member of the Board of Trustees. My wife and I are donors to the Foundation.

The FIRM Foundation, flagship organization of the "Heartland" movement, functions a bit differently, I believe. I could be wrong, but I believe that at least one of its officers makes his living from it, and I'm told that FIRM conferences typically feature booths and/or presentations connected with commercial products, something that has never been seen at an Interpreter meeting. So there may be some considerable irony in your accusing me of profiteering from the foundation that I lead.

HTTPS (aka Jonathan Neville?): "It’s a simple question. Don’t get angry. Think of the dough! ka-ching ka-ching! bling bling bling!"

The "dough" that I've earned from Interpreter, since it's nonexistent, makes no sound.

HTTPS (aka Jonathan Neville?): "Then you can still afford to tell everyone that Joseph Smith translated the plates with a stone in a hat and other imaginary tales of Mexico, Cumorah 1 and 2, and Israelites transforming into Maya, to help hinder the Lord’s work."

You made a similar spectacle of yourself when you were here before under a different moniker, I believe.

For the life of me, I can't imagine why you would suppose that such behavior reflects well on the "Heartland" movement or its claims.
Wait a second. Is he really saying this?: "I'm told that FIRM conferences typically feature booths and/or presentations connected with commercial products, something that has never been seen at an Interpreter meeting." Quite a slippery qualification, don't you think? Especially given the close ties between Interpreter and the Cruise Lady? Suffice it to say that I don't think that the full tale of "Mormon Interpreter'"s finances has yet been told.

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