Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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moksha
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by moksha »

Analytics wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
Holy Ghost wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pm
If someone has a link to the photos, I'd like to take a look.
If I'm not mistaken, I think these 24 photos are what set him off:

https://time.com/3783335/happy-valley-a ... pbringing/
That makes much more sense than apologists being rattled by photos from the 1950s.

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Kishkumen
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

By way of update, I announce that I have added a lot to the timeline. One of the most interesting threads in this is the relationship between Margaret Barker and the LDS scholarly community. One of the best sources for this history is Kevin Christensen's interview on the blog By Common Consent. See https://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/26/ ... et-barker/

According to Christensen, Mormon writers started citing Barker's 1992 book as early as 1994. By 1999 a member of the LDS Church had contacted her to bring LDS scholarship to her attention. In 2003 she visited BYU. Her 2004 book included an interview with John W. Welch. On the whole, Barker will do a lot with the LDS scholarly community. It is a fascinating story in its own right.

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Holy Ghost
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Holy Ghost »

Analytics wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
Holy Ghost wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pm
If someone has a link to the photos, I'd like to take a look.
If I'm not mistaken, I think these 24 photos are what set him off:

https://time.com/3783335/happy-valley-a ... pbringing/
Thank you for the link to the pictures. Now, however, I am perplexed at why Mormon apologists would be triggered by those photos. Quite representative of life as I experienced and observed in Happy Valley.

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Holy Ghost
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Holy Ghost »

Is the interaction between the ex-FARMS group and the Heartlanders (Rod Meldrum) included in the timeline?

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Kishkumen
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:49 pm
Is the interaction between the ex-FARMS group and the Heartlanders (Rod Meldrum) included in the timeline?
That's on the list, but it is not on the timeline yet. Thank you for reminding me to work on that.

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Dr. Shades
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Dr. Shades »

Analytics wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
If I'm not mistaken, I think these 24 photos are what set him off:

https://time.com/3783335/happy-valley-a ... pbringing/
EVERYONE: Be sure to click on the box superimposed over the lower-left corner of that first photograph in order to see the rest.

To this day, I still can't figure out why the brother-in-law has barbecue sauce slathered all over his lower legs in photo #17.

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moksha
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by moksha »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:38 pm
Now, however, I am perplexed at why Mormon apologists would be triggered by those photos.
That picture of a boy dressed in girl's clothing perhaps prompted one of Elder Oaks office staff to call BYU Instructor Louis Midgley with orders to go ballistic.

A master timeline of LDS apologetics needs to include a rough guess of when Daniel C. Peterson signed on, right? Maybe also a rough estimate of the events and times that lead up to the John Dehlin article in the Maxwell Exposé of Books and Villains.

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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

You need to include the original Mopologist, B.H. Robert's groundbreaking "Studies of the Book of Mormon"

“In light of this evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are found in the ‘common knowledge' of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work as Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews [published in Palmyra in 1825], it would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.”

- Studies of the Book of Mormon, by B.H. Roberts, p. 243, 250

“There were other Anti-Christs among the Nephites, but they were more military leaders than religious innovators... they are all of one breed and brand; so nearly alike that one mind is the author of them, and that a young and underdeveloped, but piously inclined mind. The evidence I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as their creator. It is difficult to believe that they are a product of history, that they came upon the scene separated by long periods of time, and among a race which was the ancestral race of the red man of America.”

- Studies of the Book of Mormon, by B.H. Roberts, p. 271

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Doctor Scratch
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Stake President Wang Chung: I think you're saying something important here, but as the occupant of the Cassius University Chair bearing Roberts's name.... Well, it pains me to see his name lumped in with the Mopologists. If anything, don't you think that Roberts is precisely the sort of person that the Mopologists would have targeted--i.e., an "insider" (not unlike John Dehlin or Grant Palmer) who was making criticisms of Church orthodoxy? If Roberts were alive today, and saying the same things he says in Studies of the Book of Mormon, there would be an SCMC file on him, and Midgley and the rest of the Gang would be plotting ways to smear him and ruin his life.

Here's something interesting to consider, though. Do you think that Roberts, if he were alive today, would have been kicked out entirely, ala Quinn or David Wright? Or do you think he would have been politically savvy and would have wound up with the "new" Maxwell Institute, or working on the Joseph Smith Papers Project, or something like that?

Regardless, Prof. Wang Chung, I do think we likely see eye to eye in terms of thinking that Roberts deserves a place on the Reverend's timeline, since Roberts was arguably the most powerfully effective "instigator" ever in terms of Mopologetics. And as historians of Mopologetics know, the Mopologists have expended a whole lot of effort trying to explain away many of the things that Roberts said.

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Kishkumen
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Greetings, Doctor:

Thank you for the suggestion re: B. H. Roberts. I will add more about his study of the Book of Mormon. So far I have added something about the publication date in 1985, and a reference to McMurrin claiming that the LDS Church or its agents tried to suppress the publication.

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Dr Exiled »

When did the mopes come up with the "how could Joseph have known" nonsense? Coach P and kiwi (water boy) 57, over at Sic et Non periodically post and comment, respectively, about volcanoes and then ask "how could Joseph have known about that?" They act as if they somehow know what Joseph knew or didn't know, trying to make the bofm production more of a fantastical enterprise. It goes along with artificially limiting the time of production as well. Does anyone know the genus of this argument? Did Nibley come up with it? I'd love to have the "how did he know" nonsense argument as part of the timeline.

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Philo Sofee »

I suspect Nibley is the one who came up with that angle. It would have been in his earlier Improvement Era articles such as "Howlers in the Book of Mormon," which were published in the early 1950's if memory serves me right. It was the complete and whole reason Nibley went into apologetics. It was his total modus operandi. I think he definitely is the one who started that angle, and perhaps with his "Lehi in the Desert" articles, later to be a book.

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