Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Lemmie wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:09 am

How did FARMS ensure the quality of its publications? How is this done today?

Welch: I was lucky to have served on the law review while I was at Duke law school. There I learned to source check every footnote and to require solid support for every claim. Moreover, publishing a law review is a highly collaborative effort. At FARMS we followed the same procedures: every footnote checked, every article reviewed by many people.
Wow. I recently read something from Quinn that puts this statement from Welch into an interesting perspective. The entire thing is fascinating and lays out Quinn’s proof exquisitely, but here’s an excerpt that makes Welch’s claim about “source check[ing]” and “solid support” quite unbelievable.
The following is footnote 108 from Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, revised and enlarged edition, 1998, pgs 499-504.

“As a graduate student at Brigham Young University in the late-1960s John W. Welch made the extraordinarily important discovery that there are many exam- ples in the Book of Mormon text of a complex pattern of poetic parallelism which also occurs in the Hebrew Bible. Known as chiasmus to modem scholars....

Despite all evidence to the contrary, in 1969 John W. Welch claimed that none of this information was available to Joseph Smith or even to other Americans during Smith s lifetime....

In support of his claim that this information about biblical parallelism was not available to Joseph Smith’s generation, Welch’s 1969 citation to Lowth was deceptive in two ways: (1) by not acknowledging that English-language editions were available since 1787, and (2) by citing Lowth’s 1829 Latin edition as if this were the first time the Anglican bishop published about the matter.

Welch knew differently because his master’s thesis (submitted early enough in 1970 to be read and approved by his graduate committee in April) cited Lowth’s 1815 Ameri- can edition in the English language...

As I told John W. Welch in a 1995 letter, I have always admired and praised his discovery of the ancient poetic technique of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.

However, I believe that he has done a disservice to all Mormon believers by his decades of misrepresenting America’s pre-1830 knowledge of this biblical parallelism.

As stated in my text discussion, Hugh Nibley’s misstatements in 1975 occurred because of his lack of access to information that was not yet published or not easily available to him.

That was not the case with John W. Welch, whose publications for the LDS audience since 1969, in my opinion, have manifested an escalating, intentional concealment of pre-1830 American publications about chiasmus.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... -chiasmus/
[bolding added]
This is important enough I will repost my own post (self plagarizing - GRIN!) In 1981 Jack Welch, Founder of FARMS published his seminal research on chiasmus, Chiasmus in Antiquity, including scholarly works from Akkadian, biblical, Ugaritic, Aramaic contracts and letters, Talmudic-Aggadic narrative, ancient Greek and Latin literatures, and Old and New Testaments, from numerous worldly scholarship, not just Mormons, demonstrating with fundamental evidence that chiasmus was not only and specifically Hebrew, and was used by pagan and other peoples worldwide, for the most mundane purposes, who did not have prophet claims at their beck and call, nor particularly spiritual insights in their use. It was and has continued to be conveniently ignored by apologists (ironic isn't it?!) since it does literally nothing to bolster chiasmus as a supposed "evidence" of authenticity in the Book of Mormon. Everyone in myriads of nations anciently used the literary device. There is nothing particularly inspired from God about it.

New edit: The reason this is important is because it was a validating point to make it specifically and almost exclusively HEBREW which would support the Book of Mormon. Welch inadvertantly (?) undermined that in his text. And Mormon scholars KNEW thus but didn't say much about it until they were embarrassed into it when it was found even Dr Seuss used chiasmus!

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MsJack
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Kishkumen
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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MsJack wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 8:10 pm
http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic.php?t=18091

May 1st, 2011
Thank you, MsJack!

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Morley
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Morley »

Are you including catalysts for the movement? If you are, I'd suggest that Reed Durham's 1974 speech "Is There No Help for the Widow's Son?" be included.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Morley wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:45 am
Are you including catalysts for the movement? If you are, I'd suggest that Reed Durham's 1974 speech "Is There No Help for the Widow's Son?" be included.
I am still weighing the possibility, Morley. For example, John Welch first published about chiasmus in BYU Studies in 1969. That is definitely an important part of the story of FARMS. Last year the 50th anniversary of chiasmus was celebrated. I kid you not. If that doesn't point to the importance of Welch's work on chiasmus to 20th and 21st century LDS apologetics, I don't know what does.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by I have a question »

Will John Gee's various exploits (2 Inks etc) be featuring?

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Kishkumen
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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I have a question wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:13 am
Will John Gee's various exploits (2 Inks etc) be featuring?
Yes! I welcome the help of volunteers in tracking down dates, links, etc.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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I have a question wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:13 am
Will John Gee's various exploits (2 Inks etc) be featuring?
Do you think John Gee will be able to crack the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3? I'm not aware of him settling that matter. Isn't he supposed to be an Egyptologist of preeminence and isn't he an expert in reading the ancient hieroglyphic language? You'd think he could read just a little bit of Egyptian for us.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:55 am
Morley wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:45 am
Are you including catalysts for the movement? If you are, I'd suggest that Reed Durham's 1974 speech "Is There No Help for the Widow's Son?" be included.
I am still weighing the possibility, Morley.
Such as the work of Thomas Stewart Ferguson and the rediscovery of the Joseph Smith Papyri at the Metropolitan Museum?

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Philo Sofee »

And Robert Ritner's sending it all finally to the gave.....the Egyptologists winning is a huge part of the important Book of Abraham timeline.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 11:44 am
And Robert Ritner's sending it all finally to the gave.....the Egyptologists winning is a huge part of the important Book of Abraham timeline.
Any citation or dating information you can provide would be appreciated.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 1:02 pm
CHURCH ESSAYS
Shulem,

I have added references to the church essays to the timeline. Thank you for providing this information!

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:06 am
2012
2/3 August Daniel Peterson delivers paper, "Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics," at FAIR conference.
This 2012 Fair paper mostly consisted of a word-for-word re-post of his Editor's Introduction to the 2010 FARMS Review (Vol. 22, No 2) Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 1989-2011.

Original (2010):
https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=msr

The FAIR presentation (2012):
https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/a ... pologetics

And the reprint of the reprint in Interpreter (2012):
https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... n-studies/

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Lemmie »

From the timeline:

1 August Phil Jenkins calls an end to the debate upon realizing that Hamblin has abandoned the field
Jenkins added a link a month later at the end of that post that collects links to all Jenkins-Hamilton exchanges that is extremely helpful:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p ... bating.htm

Link directs to page titled:
“DEBATING THE BOOK OF Mormon”

A fascinating piece of mopologist history.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Lemmie wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 2:57 pm
A fascinating piece of mopologist history.
Yes it is. Effectively, for those who are paying attention and have an open mind, he kills any idea that there is an ancient Book of Mormon, and he calls it for what it is, when it is treated as ancient history, pseudo-history. At this time, knowing what we know, it is unacceptable to promote pseudo-history as the real deal. It is one thing to say a book is spiritually valuable for the lessons it teaches. It is another to say that a fiction is the real history of a people who have suffered mightily, almost to complete destruction, at the hands of their colonizers.

Jenkins did a real service. What could Hamblin say? The LDS commenters on the blog show their desperation and inability to understand what it is that Jenkins is talking about.

You don't need to disprove something that was never established in the first place. All Jenkins is doing is showing that the Book of Mormon was never shown to be ancient. Nothing to disprove.

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Dr Moore
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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It seems the profanity filter dislikes how your phrasing combines a certain sequence letters, Reverend. Perhaps you should try "The Hit Piece of Greg Smith" so as to bypass detection of S followed by HIT.
4 January Doctor Scratch unpacks Morgan Davis' letter to Daniel C. Peterson and Louis C. Midgley wherein he expresses his disapproval for Greg Smith'____ piece.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:47 pm
It seems the profanity filter dislikes how your phrasing combines a certain sequence letters, Reverend. Perhaps you should try "The Hit Piece of Greg Smith" so as to bypass detection of S followed by HIT.
4 January Doctor Scratch unpacks Morgan Davis' letter to Daniel C. Peterson and Louis C. Midgley wherein he expresses his disapproval for Greg Smith'____ piece.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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I just want to bump this to draw people's attention to an interesting addition to the timeline:

8 November FARMS is incorporated. Its founder is John W. Welch. He is joined by Lew Cramer (now head of Coldwell Bankers' Salt Lake City commercial real estate office) and Clark Waddoups (now Senior United States District Judge of the United States District Court for the District of Utah), the first board members. As Welch would later reminisce, "It was exactly a quarter of a century ago that three lawyers (Lew Cramer, Clark Waddoups, and I) were driving up Sixth Street in Los Angeles to get on the Harbor Freeway on our way home. I was practicing tax law at the time, and in retrospect I think it no accident that I had developed some expertise in organizing and advising tax exempt organizations. I was about to file the articles for a new foundation that could make Book of Mormon research available to people all over the world and that could facilitate the good work of promising Latter-day Saint scholars. Well, all we needed was a name. As we pulled onto the freeway, the name "FARMS" was hatched. It got a good laugh at first, but none of us could forget it, nor has the general public." See Insights, vol. 24, no. 3 (2004) p. 4.

This is an expansion of the original entry. The new information comes from a speech Welch delivered to the FARMS Development Council dinner in 2004.

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Morley
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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Morley »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:55 am
For example, John Welch first published about chiasmus in BYU Studies in 1969. That is definitely an important part of the story of FARMS. Last year the 50th anniversary of chiasmus was celebrated. I kid you not. If that doesn't point to the importance of Welch's work on chiasmus to 20th and 21st century LDS apologetics, I don't know what does.
Damn. Fifty years. I had no idea.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

Post by Kishkumen »

Stem wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 12:06 pm
2005
2006
2005 ended with the release of Rough Stone Rolling, and merry Smithmas. Such a big Mormon year, it felt, but little notice in the world of mopologetics.

Oh also in 2005 was the The Worlds of Joseph Smith conference:
https://byustudies.BYU.edu/content/worlds-joseph-smith
Thank you, Stem! I appreciate these valuable contributions.

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Re: Master Timeline of Mopologetics

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Holy Ghost wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pm
If someone has a link to the photos, I'd like to take a look.
If I'm not mistaken, I think these 24 photos are what set him off:

https://time.com/3783335/happy-valley-a ... pbringing/

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