A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

Thank you for your kind words, Jersey Girl. I’m actually not amongst those on lockdown, but an essential employee. I’m not on the front lines. I’m thankful to be able to continue to work through all of this. Working does however cramp my free time to post and the mental exhaustion at the end of the day keeps me from entering into more a systematically engaging dialogue. Honestly, I think I have brain fog and it’s only noon.

I was thinking, “Am I being thought of as a troll. Am I being played with as a troll?” It has been years since I’ve thought of the T-word.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by huckelberry »

I suspect people have some difficulty maintaining the sense of their own innocence. It appears that a strain can cause people to attack others accusing them of lying or other sins, perhaps even stupidity. It is to my view not only Christians who fall into this trp but nonbelievers who support their innocence by accusing others.

Now my religion does not tell me to hate or condemn anybody. It tells me not to do that which I confess I experience some difficulty doing sort of like that Paul quote Physics Guy observed above.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Jersey Girl »

msnobody wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:08 am
Thank you for your kind words, Jersey Girl. I’m actually not amongst those on lockdown, but an essential employee. I’m not on the front lines. I’m thankful to be able to continue to work through all of this. Working does however cramp my free time to post and the mental exhaustion at the end of the day keeps me from entering into more a systematically engaging dialogue. Honestly, I think I have brain fog and it’s only noon.
I was hoping you were included in a reduction of services. Darn. Well it's nice to see you posting again.
I was thinking, “Am I being thought of as a troll. Am I being played with as a troll?” It has been years since I’ve thought of the T-word.
Nah. You're just being viewed as the new shiny object to attack by people who don't really know you because they have a little too much time on their hands. Don't we all!

Well, maybe not you MsEssential.

;-)

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate, that I do.
This certainly rings true for me. I'm selfish and tend to put myself first instead of others. It is a constant battle. Like a war waging inside. I am thankful though for the times I'm allowed to recognize it and change my way of thinking. I regret the times I don't recognize it, and worst are those times when I just choose to ignore it.
Last edited by msnobody on Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

Ok. Now that you’ve had enough time to flesh out the background of “your friend” who is a questioning member of the cojcolds -the j is silent - why in the world couldn’t you just say that upthread when I asked you a simple, curious, and genuine question? The answer you ended up giving wasn’t bizarre or doxxing anyone. This all has a weird vibe to it. Your reluctance and then capitulation is off, despite how sweet and genuine Jersey Girl, another Christian, says you are, and of which I have little doubt.

ANYWAY, what’s up with your friend’s faith crisis? Why is she aware of this board?

- Doc
.

Sorry, but I took "Who is your friend," as something different than tell me about your friend's background. I kind of gather that you may have viewed me as a troll (am I showing my age/) doing a drive-by, and dropping what may seem to be insincere, self-righteous love bombs.

What's up with the crisis of faith?
Well, pretty much like most everyone else; doubts about the truth claims of the church, growing weary of trying to live up to expectations, the problematic past doctrines of the church and maybe some of the ongoing ones as well- IDK. The tug-of-war with leaving/staying and maintaining peace within the family. Figuratively, speaking, let's not forget the ever downward bowed bookshelf that at times slips off its support under the weight of it all and eventually gets to where the length of the board no longer reaches the supports on which it was once able to stand, no matter how many times we try to nail it back up there. The questions of if this isn't true, how do I know if anything is true? Can I trust again? Then, there are positive things that can be appreciated about the culture.

I was thinking earlier today about a verse I've heard several times the few times I've attended a meetinghouse whether it be F&T Sunday, RS, stake conference, from LDS missionaries, etc. I was thinking about that verse, I think it is somewhere in Matthew 5, that says, "Be ye perfect," and how the church doesn't teach an effective way of how to do that. If we don't know how to "be perfect", we are set up for failure, and eventually self-loathing, despair and anger. Yet from the same book, in Hebrews 10, it says, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." And prior to that in v. 11 "Every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:" We stumble over that one offering, that only way of "be ye perfect." How different would the church be if there was "one offering," than members sacrificing self, day after day, that never takes away sin?

Why is my friend aware of this board?
I assume back in the day, there weren't a lot of places like this to go to. I don't remember but a handful when I encountered Mormonism in about 2002, and I think there weren't but a couple of directions a questioning LDS could go for online discussion at the time. I really didn't probe the question, I thought about asking, but didn't. I felt like I already knew the answer without having to ask. I got the idea that my friend feels like maybe they've reached the end of any benefit this or any like discussion board may offer. And, I suppose, wondered about the reason I'm here. I mean, this stuff has been rehashed over and over for many years.

Well, I'm tired. Good night and sleep well.

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MsJack
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by MsJack »

MsNobody, what was your handle on ZLMB?

I get that, as Christians, we're called to be witnesses in all times and all places. God has saved me from myself too many times to count. I'm grateful for my Christian faith and I know that I would not be the person I am today without the Holy Spirit's refining fire in my life.

But I also think that, sometimes, when interacting with a group that is burned out with religion, the best way to be a Christian witness is to be a good person and a thoughtful friend. "To the Gentiles I became a Gentile" and whatnot.

Usually the only people who want to know why I post here are conservative Mormons who can't understand why I post at a place which is fairly hostile to the LDS faith. I usually respond by admitting that I know this board isn't perfect and leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm open to recommendations of other boards to post on.

Haven't gotten a single recommendation yet.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Lemmie »

msnobody wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Why is my friend aware of this board?
I assume back in the day, there weren't a lot of places like this to go to. I don't remember but a handful when I encountered Mormonism in about 2002, and I think there weren't but a couple of directions a questioning LDS could go for online discussion at the time. I really didn't probe the question, I thought about asking, but didn't. I felt like I already knew the answer without having to ask. I got the idea that my friend feels like maybe they've reached the end of any benefit this or any like discussion board may offer. And, I suppose, wondered about the reason I'm here. I mean, this stuff has been rehashed over and over for many years.
I always wonder when I read things like this. I enjoy this board as a source of ongoing friendship and interaction with people, many of whom seem to have similar backgrounds or a pretty solid understanding of the common, born and raised LDS background. There seem to be similar ongoing experiences such as Interacting with family members still LDS, and similar interests in topics, plus a lot of new topics to find interest in. Of course these are online interactions, but given where I live and work, there are literally almost no people, and certainly no large group of people, with similar backgrounds to mine that I can interact with regularly in person. Nor is anything as remotely convenient or even possible as the opportunity of taking a few minutes here and there, at any time of the day and almost anywhere, to engage.

In that sense, how does one “reach the end of any benefit” to a discussion board? I’m not so introverted that I can imagine deciding to keep living but that it’s time to stop having interactions with other humans, whether in person or online.
my heart's deep desire for my fellow MDBer's to know, not just a head knowledge, but to know deep within their soul the peace that surpasses all understanding that comes from trusting in Christ alone.
Sigh. I have a deep desire for you to KNOW, deep within your brain, that no one can KNOW this thing that you feel. I really want you to understand the difference between knowledge and feelings. However, that’s really none of my business, is it? So I won’t continue to press you on it. In fact, I retract saying it at all, and out of respect for you I won’t bring it up again, unless you’d like to discuss the topic (as opposed to just evangelizing or witnessing.) You know, now that I think about it, maybe that’s what you meant when you said one may have reached the end of the benefit of a board like this. If one sees it only or primarily as a place to “witness” then yes, I can see how the benefit might end.

On the other hand, I really liked MsJack’s take on this subject, thank you for your post, MsJack!

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

“I really didn't probe the question, I thought about asking, but didn't.”

“I felt like I already knew the answer without having to ask.”

“I got the idea that my friend feels like maybe they've reached the end of any benefit this or any like discussion board may offer.”

“And, I suppose, wondered about the reason I'm here. I mean, this stuff has been rehashed over and over for many years.”

So, your “friend” asked you, out of the blue, why you post at MormonDiscussions.com, and your answer was a sort of lengthy answer regarding evangelizing to us here, and you didn’t care to ask her about her reasons for participating, but rather just made some assumptions and moved on after taking the opportunity to talk about your own motivations?

Not a good look, Ms. Nobody.

One of the things about good fiction writers is they’ve developed a thorough in-universe backstory. At the drop of the hat, the really good writers would be delighted to share the sordid details of Tywin Lannister’s dealings with House Reyne, or why Darth Revis could dunk on Lebron James if he were drafted by the NBA. The superficial fictional writers rely on tired tropes and shallow characters, say, like Bella and her sexy teenage vampire cabal. Vapid recycling of soulless characters caught up in a moral arc easily resolved by ex machina miracles are tells that a writer hasn’t progressed beyond Jack Chick tracts.

Step up your witnessing game, madame. If you’re going to be predictable, at least be interesting.

- Doc

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Gadianton
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Gadianton »

msnobody,

Just a couple of observations. First, I don't think others consider you a troll. Trolls are intentionally being obnoxious. I think you are very sincere. Sincerity can be obnoxious to the degree it lacks self-awareness. My guess it's this latter angle Cam is coming from. I've had hundreds of irritating run-ins with born-again Christians lacking self-awareness, but, I haven't followed your posts, so I have no opinion one way or the other at this time about your practice of Christianity. My point is that, I don't think what's on the table is "trolling".

Second, the matter of your friend. Okay, I think Cam was being a dick for going straight to the throat on this one because you come across as a nice person, but it is what it is, and it has generated a two-way conversation.

Your post title said "A friend asked why am I here..."

your rebuttals to Cam are like, "Because I would not give you the name of my friend that makes me a liar?"

But you've also said:

"I‘ve been asked more than once why I participate here, by participants and non-participants alike, and have made several friends here over the years, many of whom are from the ZLMB days."

These responses are barely compatible. In the latter, it's like you're arguing for plausible deniability, is it not possible that out of all the years you've posted, someone has asked why you are here, and that person could arguably be considered an online friend? Doesn't really hit the mark.

I don't know what Cam's expectations are, but I doubt he expects you to pony up an IRL name to track down. I think an answer indicating you had specifics in mind is good enough; I'll take it on your word. If you say, "a friend from this forum asked me last tuesday" or "A co-worker in real life, during a conversation at lunch a month ago where this board came up" -- any answer indicating you had a specific person and specific conversation in mind when you wrote your OP will do for me.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

MsJack wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:40 pm
MsNobody, what was your handle on ZLMB?

I get that, as Christians, we're called to be witnesses in all times and all places. God has saved me from myself too many times to count. I'm grateful for my Christian faith and I know that I would not be the person I am today without the Holy Spirit's refining fire in my life.

But I also think that, sometimes, when interacting with a group that is burned out with religion, the best way to be a Christian witness is to be a good person and a thoughtful friend. "To the Gentiles I became a Gentile" and whatnot.

Usually the only people who want to know why I post here are conservative Mormons who can't understand why I post at a place which is fairly hostile to the LDS faith. I usually respond by admitting that I know this board isn't perfect and leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm open to recommendations of other boards to post on.

Haven't gotten a single recommendation yet.
Hi, MsJack. This is weaps from Z. Nice seeing you here. I appreciate what you said about being thoughtful. I felt compelled to post the OP and did so. Maybe what was said will resonate with someone and if not immediately, maybe somewhere down the road. Sometimes there is a time to speak to the intellect and other times, to speak to the heart.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

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So, your “friend” asked you, out of the blue, why you post at MormonDiscussions.com, and your answer was a sort of lengthy answer regarding evangelizing to us here, and you didn’t care to ask her about her reasons for participating, but rather just made some assumptions and moved on after taking the opportunity to talk about your own motivations
It wasn't out of the blue, although it did catch me off guard a little bit. It was during a time of reminiscing. I know my friend's reasons for participation. It is reasons for none participation that I didn't ask about. Sometimes, you know your friends so well, that you don't have to ask. And, yes, I have evangelized here and I don't apologize for it. It may happen again sometime.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

I don't know what Cam's expectations are, but I doubt he expects you to pony up an IRL name to track down. I think an answer indicating you had specifics in mind is good enough; I'll take it on your word. If you say, "a friend from this forum asked me last tuesday" or "A co-worker in real life, during a conversation at lunch a month ago where this board came up" -- any answer indicating you had a specific person and specific conversation in mind when you wrote your OP will do for me.
Thank you, Gad. The point was that the friend's question prompted introspection on my part and what followed under the subject line was the conclusion to that introspection. Just prior to the friends question to me, I was already compelled to post an evangelistic post anyway. The two meld together in the OP.

It is really good to see old online acquaintances on here. There was a day when more folks here would have been relentlessly firing away at me. I guess we're all mellowing out in our old age. Seriously, I love you guys. I'm thankful for Analytics posting the thread on ZMLB years ago and inviting me to read the replies, and to Dr. Shades for inviting me here and allowing me to be me.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

What is your background, Dr. CamNC4Me, if you'd like to share that with me? How did you make your way here to M D B?

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

[quote=msnobody post_id=1221711 time=1586919883 user_id=23]It wasn't out of the blue, although it did catch me off guard a little bit. It was during a time of reminiscing. I know my friend's reasons for participation. It is reasons for none participation that I didn't ask about. Sometimes, you know your friends so well, that you don't have to ask. And, yes, I have evangelized here and I don't apologize for it. It may happen again sometime.[/quote]

It was “during a time of reminiscing”? Wut.

Since we’re in the mood to evangelize I’ll share my thoughts about your faith. Christians are, more often than not, nervous individuals who instead of striving to improve themselves, their families, their towns, and their countries spend their miserable self-loathing lives waiting for a magical Jewish carpenter to come down from the clouds and save them. Self-reliance is a foreign and utterly terrifying concept to them. They lack the strength and drive to deliver themselves, so they seek deliverance externally. Thus, Christianity is the ultimate cop out. As the world turns around them, powerless Christians harbor a secret death wish in their hearts, and pray the destruction of the world because they think "it's all a part of God's plan."

And the "teachings" of Christianity are diametrically opposed to reason and is a celebration of weakness; it keeps them everlastingly ill-at-ease; they lack the spirit, the very essence of champions, to seize ahold of their own lives and own their accountability to themselves. Instead, they whine and cry to an archetype absentee daddy figure because existence is too onerous, too heavy, too demanding and they instead navel gaze while mumbling penances in order to larp away responsibility.

- Doc

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

Reminiscing through spiritual journeys.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by huckelberry »

Doc, you have presented a colorful and vivid image of how you see Christians. It is not original ,I don't think you intended it to be. I think there have been times I considered such a view. It is likely not absolutely without foundation despite it been the opposite of and negation of everything Christianity teaches and stands for. People can do that sometimes.

There are irreligious folks who do the same but expect complaining about the unfairness of life to be a stand in for that sky daddy.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by msnobody »

Where are you EAllusion? I don't know if you coined the term "perma-saved," but I've always given you credit for it.

Edited to say, Hah! How cool is it that when you type E A, EAllusion replaces it? You must have reached your highest exaltation.

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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Lemmie »

msnobody wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:25 pm

It is really good to see old online acquaintances on here. There was a day when more folks here would have been relentlessly firing away at me. I guess we're all mellowing out in our old age. Seriously, I love you guys. I'm thankful for Analytics posting the thread on ZMLB years ago and inviting me to read the replies, and to Dr. Shades for inviting me here and allowing me to be me.
Fascinating. My response to msnobody was completely ignored by her, but I suppose being ignored by an evangelist who refuses to engage and only witnesses is not really a problem, is it? She “loves you guys”, you old timers! How fun for you.

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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Lemmie wrote,
She “loves you guys”, you old timers! How fun for you.
No worries, Lemmie. I didn't get any love from msnobdy either. I think she might be trying to start some East Coast vs West Coast feud.

https://youtu.be/JpgpS3ogvMM?t=40

Lemmie
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on MormonDiscussions.com

Post by Lemmie »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:01 pm
Lemmie wrote,
She “loves you guys”, you old timers! How fun for you.
No worries, Lemmie. I didn't get any love from msnobdy either. I think she might be trying to start some East Coast vs West Coast feud.

https://youtu.be/JpgpS3ogvMM?t=40
Thank you, Everybody Wang Chung, that was exactly what I needed to see just now.

From your clip:
“You don’t love us? YOU don’t love US?!?!??

Lol.

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msnobody
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Re: A friend asked why am I here on M D B

Post by msnobody »

I'll provide a little background about myself. I was raised in a Methodist church. Only heard about Mormonism a handful of times, the first being in about the 6th grade when I was walking into a friend’s house, and another girl that was there said something (I didn't hear that part) to my other friend. What the other friend said, it was a comment about their next door neighbor, "Oh, they're Mormon, they believe in having more than one wife." I thought nothing more about it, but I vividly remember it. It was a good while, years later, before the topic of Mormonism came up again. I remember seeing the little blue books sometimes and I even think there was one on the bookshelf at home gathering dust. More years pass by, and by then I had a general understanding of the basic doctrines of the LDS church.

Approximately 2001 or so, some LDS missionaries knocked on my door. We talked for a bit, pretty much with them telling me that we believed the same thing. I knew enough about the doctrines of the LDS church to know we didn’t believe the same thing (provided they believed their church doctrine). The very moment the door closed and they went on their way, I decided that I should learn what the LDS church teaches and learn it from Latter-day Saints, go to the source. So, around 2002, I'm driving down the street and see two bicycles resting against a stop sign. I remember thinking, “Count the cost.” Did I have it within me to invest the amount of time it may take to take on this endeavor? If I set out to learn from LDS what the church teaches and what life is like as a LDS, I would need to invest my time and myself in the life of others. Was I willing to do that? So, I stopped and talked to the elders.

The next couple of years were wonderful (that is a story for another day). I spent a lot of time in the teaching pool and then, one day, I was ejected from the teaching pool. The day I was ejected from the teaching pool was the day the two elders came, but this time, brought the AP and his companion. We met that day in our church. I was asked would I be baptized into the LDS church. When I said no, the AP started firing off questions like, “Have you ever wondered why you have to pay your preacher to preach, when Jesus never charged anything to teach?” Another one was, “Have you ever wondered why they make you give money to your church?” Yeah, that one was priceless! This sort of dialogue went on for maybe ten minutes. Biblical answers were given to the questions. I guess when it was apparent that I was not a candidate for church membership, all four guys gathered and stood around me, I was sitting, and they pulled out their missionary hymnbooks and sang Called to Serve. AP opened the door and said, “We won’t be teaching you anymore, ” and held the door pointing the other three out the door. I stayed in touch with the other missionaries, some more than others. I got to meet a couple of missionary’s families. Once the ones I knew best had gone back home. I, then, set out to find out what life was like for those who were questioning Mormonism, left the church, or the various scenarios in which one may find him or herself. Somehow I came across Analytics and asked questions. Analytics posted a question on my behalf on ZLMB and invited me to read the responses. Then, ZLMB, fast forward to M D B. Somewhere in the ZLMB to MormonDiscussions.com time, I also participated on Mormon’s in Transition, an online group for LDS who question the truth claims of the LDS church, and want to explore biblical (bible alone) Christianity. I met someone on MIT who was raised in polygamy group and who left the polygamist group (Kingston's), became a biblical Christian, and explored a little bit into what life was like for polygamist groups that sprang out of early Mormonism, and leaving the polygamist lifestyle, etc. I participated on RfM some and also on Mormon Dialogue (i'm afraid to see what the will be changed to after I hit submit). Sorry that was so long, but this is the Cliff Notes version.
I always wonder when I read things like this. I enjoy this board as a source of ongoing friendship and interaction with people, many of whom seem to have similar backgrounds or a pretty solid understanding of the common, born and raised LDS background. There seem to be similar ongoing experiences such as interacting with family members still LDS, and similar interests in topics, plus a lot of new topics to find interest in. Of course these are online interactions, but given where I live and work, there are literally almost no people, and certainly no large group of people, with similar backgrounds to mine that I can interact with regularly in person. Nor is anything as remotely convenient or even possible as the opportunity of taking a few minutes here and there, at any time of the day and almost anywhere, to engage.
I can understand this, but from a different background. Being an evangelical and interacting with LDS missionaries, and having some of your fellow believers not share your enthusiasm for LDSs, or even sometimes even scared of you because you interact with LDS and you because they think you’ve got one foot in the edge of Hell about to get sucked in due to the vast doctrinal differences. There are also those who understand and provide support. It can be a lonely place when you care for a people group who you’ve come to love, while others would just as soon shut the door in their faces or view them beyond God’s love and saving grace. Couple that with living outside the LDS corridor. So, yes, I understand this, but in a little different way.
In that sense, how does one “reach the end of any benefit” to a discussion board? I’m not so introverted that I can imagine deciding to keep living but that it’s time to stop having interactions with other humans, whether in person or online.
I think maybe it could be the topics discussed, sometimes over and over, or maybe getting to a place where you just move on, find a new community, or move on to focusing more time on other things, interacting with humans outside an online discussion board. Many here have taken breaks from the board, vowed to leave and not come back, some leave and come back, etc.
Sigh. I have a deep desire for you to KNOW, deep within your brain, that no one can KNOW this thing that you feel. I really want you to understand the difference between knowledge and feelings. However, that’s really none of my business, is it? So I won’t continue to press you on it. In fact, I retract saying it at all, and out of respect for you I won’t bring it up again, unless you’d like to discuss the topic (as opposed to just evangelizing or witnessing.) You know, now that I think about it, maybe that’s what you meant when you said one may have reached the end of the benefit of a board like this. If one sees it only or primarily as a place to “witness” then yes, I can see how the benefit might end.
Honestly, I am a part of this community and feel at home here. Our feelings are faulty, but you can know, you just haven’t found that out yet, but I totally understand where you’re coming from, and how you would view me saying that. Maybe you can forgive me for now. I wouldn’t be here if I thought people were beyond God’s saving grace, and I think that what people long for is found in Christ.

Please don't view this as a cop out, but, I may be better prepared to have a meaningful topical discussion around July when I will try to get off of a medication that causes me extreme mental and physical fatigue. Right now, I don’t think I have the wherewithal to participate in such discussion since I’m totally wiped out after my workday, sometimes even before the workday is over. I can explain in a PM, but I’m not going to post any more about that on the thread. It takes energy to post here and engage persons with views opposed to your own and in a way they will halfway accept.

Okay, I'm wiped out. More later. I'm not ignoring anyone's posts, just haven't gotten to it yer. And, maybe ya'll can forgive me if I don't reread this post to alter what may be taken as offensive. If the gospel part offends, that is the one area for which I do not apologize, however.
Last edited by msnobody on Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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