“gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

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Lemmie
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“gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

It’s difficult to describe the depth of hatred in Peterson’s latest post, in which he does his best to destroy extended Mormon family relationships by defining those who leave his church with phrases better suited to organized crime threats and vicious violence than to a religion that believes “families are forever.”

The only silver lining is that SeN is apparently a minimally noticed blog, so hopefully more humane LDS voices outweigh his hatred and disdain for people who do not believe in his teeny tiny religion:

Daniel C. Peterson:

George Q. Cannon, having witnessed more than fifty years of Church history, once offered the following reflections:

”Our pathway from the beginning, it may be said, is lined with the graves of those who have lost their faith, who were buried before they died, having lost faith and remained behind....

You who have had friends, relatives and acquaintances in this condition know what the result has been. Would you exchange your circumstances today with theirs? . . . .

He loves the true; but traitors–those who betray their brethren–He–I was going to say–despises them; at any rate they fall under His displeasure; they become like wrecks, castaways stripped of their former power, bereft of the Spirit and blessing that attended them in former times.

Some of you have no doubt seen fine vessels that have done good service stranded and wrecked, with nothing much besides the ribs and keel left; those who become darkened lose the Spirit and their faith, and thus become human wrecks, remind me of such unfortunate vessels.

[George Q. Cannon, 23 February, 1890, Collected Discourses 2:17-18]. “



The truth of what President Cannon said has been illustrated time and again by people that I’ve known. I’ve been deeply saddened to see those who’ve lost their way.

Despicable.

Midgley the Bully, originator of the ugly ‘gone missing’ phrase, weighs in:
Louis Midgley • 23 minutes ago

... George Q. Cannon was a truly remarkable human being. That was a wonderful statement by Elder Cannon that Dan posted today. One well worth taking seriously.

:rolleyes:

The Maxwell Institute is breathing a sigh of relief (again) that their name is no longer associated with mindless thuggery like this.

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Maksutov
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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Maksutov »

Better buried before dead than braindead and still babbling. :razz:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

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Maksutov wrote:Better buried before dead than braindead and still babbling. :razz:

Brilliant!
:wink:
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Maksutov wrote:Better buried before dead than braindead and still babbling. :razz:

So not ‘gone missing’, just ‘gone’ in the head?! :lol:

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

From David B., himself!
David B • 2 hours ago

Such thinking, as put forth by GQ Cannon, is most palpably absurd when you find yourself on the outside looking in. You learn quickly how such teachings really cause anger and division by those family members still in it. I'm as sweet as a potato, but man those Mormons can be an angry bunch.

"God does not forget his faithful people. He loves the righteous and he loves the courageous. He loves the true; but traitors–those who betray their brethren–He–I was going to say–despises them; at any rate they fall under His displeasure; they become like wrecks, castaways stripped of their former power, bereft of the Spirit and blessing that attended them in former times. Some of you have no doubt seen fine vessels that have done good service stranded and wrecked, with nothing much besides the ribs and keel left; those who become darkened lose the Spirit and their faith, and thus become human wrecks, remind me of such unfortunate vessels."

Woooeee. That's some hateful stuff.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... _died8221/


And of course the rebuttal, toothless as it is:
DanielPeterson Mod David B • an hour ago

I don't know that it's "hateful" or "angry."

:rolleyes:

GQC: “And thus become human wrecks“ = hateful.

DCP: ”The truth of what President Cannon said has been illustrated time and again by people that I’ve known.” = angry.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Stem »

What a pathetic quotation Dr Professor Peterson Ph.D. has endorsed. I decided to give him a response in his comments:

David B: Such thinking, as put forth by GQ Cannon, is most palpably absurd when you find yourself on the outside looking in. You learn quickly how such teachings really cause anger and division by those family members still in it. I'm as sweet as a potato, but man those Mormons can be an angry bunch.

"God does not forget his faithful people. He loves the righteous and he loves the courageous. He loves the true; but traitors–those who betray their brethren–He–I was going to say–despises them; at any rate they fall under His displeasure; they become like wrecks, castaways stripped of their former power, bereft of the Spirit and blessing that attended them in former times. Some of you have no doubt seen fine vessels that have done good service stranded and wrecked, with nothing much besides the ribs and keel left; those who become darkened lose the Spirit and their faith, and thus become human wrecks, remind me of such unfortunate vessels."

Woooeee. That's some hateful stuff.

DanielPeterson:
I don't know that it's "hateful" or "angry."

I've read a huge amount from George Q. Cannon, including his unpublished journals, and he simply wasn't a hateful person. Moreover, I don't believe that your characterization of that passage as "hateful" is accurate. But I do agree that your judgment stems from your particular current perspective.

There are certainly haters out there. Oh yes, indeed there are. And many of them post anonymously online.

David B:
Isn't despise really just a synonym for hate? Sure it is. When I say angry I'm thinking of those actions that resulted from my active friends and family who seem to have taken the type of teachings you quoted from GQ Cannon to heart. That old legacy of treating gentiles and apostates as devils continues to some extent. It'd be wise for the Church to stamp it out. One way you can help to do so is not quote hateful things and claim despise does not equal hate, I'd think.

DanielPeterson:
We disagree, David B.

I strongly believe in charity and kindness, and I strongly oppose mistreating people who have lost their faith and/or forsaken their covenants.

I also think, however, that talk of LDS "hatred," of LDS "anger," of an "old legacy of treating gentiles and apostates as devils," of our "despising" non-believers, is grossly overwrought and exaggerated and, in fact, unjust, and that it should stop. I'm routinely accused of such things myself -- you know at first hand that this is true -- and they're flatly false. They are either misunderstandings or they are lies. (In certain cases, I see no alternative but to call them the latter.)

That we see things very differently is unquestionably true. It stems from our holding quite different worldviews. But demonizing the Other isn't a way to move forward.

David B:
Yes indeed, "demonizing the Other isn't a way to move forward". Thus quoting GQ Cannon demonizing the Other, even suggesting God despises them, implying God forgets them, and painting them as broken up boats with only ribs and keel remaining, darkened in Spirit and faith, becoming human wrecks is not a way forward at all. It is doing nothing but going backward.

I honestly don't know how you seriously disagree that despise and hate are not synonyms. That is not really something to dismiss as a "we can agree to disagree" thing. And the amount of hate coming out of GQ Cannon's quotation is not something easily dismissed either. It epitomizes the very problem we have.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Stem »

Lemmie wrote: :rolleyes:

GQC: “And thus become human wrecks“ = hateful.

DCP: ”The truth of what President Cannon said has been illustrated time and again by people that I’ve known.” = angry.


A very disappointing exchange. I mean the other ones I got him on were funny and disappointing, but this one took it to another level.

Sorry I was trying to put my little post together as you posted this. Didn't mean to duplicate it, but I figure I'll leave mine since I included the latest back and forth.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Sorry I was trying to put my little post together as you posted this. Didn't mean to duplicate it, but I figure I'll leave mine since I included the latest back and forth.

No problem, I was in between postings myself and I was duplicating you also! I do appreciate your posts there very much, thank you.

I removed the duplications, except for this bit where I wanted to make a serious point:

DCP’s response to David B is bizarre, at best. Is he trying to apologize? Or withdraw his support of his own blog entry, without actually withdrawing the entry itself?

DanielPeterson Mod David B • 12 minutes ago • edited

We disagree, David B.

I strongly believe in charity and kindness, and I strongly oppose mistreating people who have lost their faith and/or forsaken their covenants.

I also think, however, that talk of LDS "hatred," of LDS "anger," of an "old legacy of treating gentiles and apostates as devils," of our "despising" non-believers, is grossly overwrought and exaggerated and, in fact, unjust, and that it should stop.

[bolding added to note that DCP could best accomplish this himself simply by not promoting Cannon’s quote containing, among other hateful and angry parts, the execrable phrase: “buried before they died.”]

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Maksutov »

What reminds me of "buried before dead" is being a Mormon. At least when you're buried your ears are stuffed with dirt and you don't have to hear the same inane lying bull ____ repeated ad infinitum.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Peterson doubles down.
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 14 minutes ago

David B: "I honestly don't know how you seriously disagree that despise and hate are not synonyms."

I've said nothing about that question.

David B: "The amount of hate coming out of GQ Cannon's quotation is not something easily dismissed either."

[DCP:] I see none.


You're misreading him. Egregiously.




David B DanielPeterson • 5 minutes ago

Nope. But seeing as you are digging in your heels, I'll just note coming from one who is outside looking in, most members do not realize how vile they are being, as they do so. That you don't see it, doesn't surprise.


Peterson then asserts that if people leave his church, and by his assumption only are possibly vocal and public about their decision, that LDS members have are justified in reacting with divisive hatred:
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 9 minutes ago

David B: "Which person who has left is a human wreck? If you can name one, consider: He's not saying one leaver is, but all leavers are. He's not saying that only some incur God's displeasure but all do."

And I agree with him. Believing the claims of the Restoration to be true, I cannot regard rejection of those claims as anything other than unfortunate and regrettable.

David B: "Curious how you can be so cavalier and rather dismissive."

I'm neither cavalier nor dismissive at such cases. I'm profoundly saddened by them.

David B: "I will add this hits me at quite a time. I have family members who have been adamantly and obvious in their anger and hatred."

I'm sorry to hear it. But, just as you hope that they will treat you more charitably, you should try to show them some charity, too. Your vocal departure from the faith and your public rejection of it has certainly caused them considerable pain and real awkwardness around you. Their reactions stem from that, do they not?
(note that David b. said nothing about being vocal or public. Peterson has to assume that to justify his hate.)

I feel for David B’s situation, as I have similar challenges. It’s sad that a religion fosters such hatred toward others, including family members. Peterson exacerbates that with every blog entry like this he puts up. It’s shameful behavior that emphasizes that for some LDS, families are NOT forever, and some family members deserve hate, dismissal, and scorn. It’s an LDS position that reflects the very worst of human society. This LDS mindset has done huge damage in my family. It is inexcusable.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Stem »

Lemmie wrote:Peterson doubles down.
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 14 minutes ago

David B: "I honestly don't know how you seriously disagree that despise and hate are not synonyms."

I've said nothing about that question.

David B: "The amount of hate coming out of GQ Cannon's quotation is not something easily dismissed either."

[DCP:] I see none.


You're misreading him. Egregiously.




David B DanielPeterson • 5 minutes ago

Nope. But seeing as you are digging in your heels, I'll just note coming from one who is outside looking in, most members do not realize how vile they are being, as they do so. That you don't see it, doesn't surprise.


Peterson then asserts that if people leave his church, and by his assumption only are possibly vocal and public about their decision, that LDS members have are justified in reacting with divisive hatred:
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 9 minutes ago

David B: "Which person who has left is a human wreck? If you can name one, consider: He's not saying one leaver is, but all leavers are. He's not saying that only some incur God's displeasure but all do."

And I agree with him. Believing the claims of the Restoration to be true, I cannot regard rejection of those claims as anything other than unfortunate and regrettable.

David B: "Curious how you can be so cavalier and rather dismissive."

I'm neither cavalier nor dismissive at such cases. I'm profoundly saddened by them.

David B: "I will add this hits me at quite a time. I have family members who have been adamantly and obvious in their anger and hatred."

I'm sorry to hear it. But, just as you hope that they will treat you more charitably, you should try to show them some charity, too. Your vocal departure from the faith and your public rejection of it has certainly caused them considerable pain and real awkwardness around you. Their reactions stem from that, do they not?
(note that David b. said nothing about being vocal or public. Peterson has to assume that to justify his hate.)

I feel for David B’s situation, as I have similar challenges. It’s sad that a religion fosters such hatred toward others, including family members. Peterson exacerbates that with every blog entry like this he puts up. It’s shameful behavior that emphasizes that for some LDS, families are NOT forever, and some family members deserve hate, dismissal, and scorn. It’s an LDS position that reflects the very worst of human society. This LDS mindset has done huge damage in my family. It is inexcusable.


I could not help myself but persevere a bit in the discussion. It only got more and more disappointing as it went on though.

It was revealing, really.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Fence Sitter »

Maybe Dr's Peterson & Midgley assume that people who have left the church all act the same way they did when they left the M.I.?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Stem:

I could not help myself but persevere a bit in the discussion. It only got more and more disappointing as it went on though.

It was revealing, really.

I know. I was touched by your comments about your family. I have a similar situation and can empathize completely. My heart goes out to you.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Peterson cannot help himself.
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 39 minutes ago


I oppose hateful rhetoric and actions, too.


−—
David B DanielPeterson • 38 minutes ago

Then it'd be wise to not think of those who leave the faith as human wrecks.


−—
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 18 minutes ago

That's only one way of thinking of them. And it's true even from my point of view only in a very limited (but not unimportant) sense.

Moreover, these are GQC's words from well over a century ago, not mine. I wouldn't use the expression myself.

Nineteenth-century rhetoric is different than twenty-first-century rhetoric.

That said, I don't read him the way you do. I simply don't.


Peterson wouldn’t use the expression “human wrecks” himself. Although he goes on to note that it is TRUE that those who leave his church are “human wrecks.” :rolleyes:
Last edited by Lemmie on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

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Peterson on the Cannon quote.
DanielPeterson Mod David B • an hour ago

It's not "hateful prose."


:rolleyes:

David B DanielPeterson • an hour ago

Sure it's hateful. Endorsing it only contributes to the very problems of divisiveness that tends to crop up between members and those who leave. It's too bad you don't see that.

Maybe someday.


−—
DanielPeterson Mod David B • 35 minutes ago • edited

I don't see it....


Lemmie
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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Lemmie »

Dr. VelhoBurrinho • 37 minutes ago

“Buried before they died”

An apt description of the shunning that sometimes takes place. I think another way some people say it is "they are dead to me" either way not very christian behavior.


−—
DanielPeterson Mod Dr. VelhoBurrinho • 26 minutes ago

Latter-day Saints don't practice "shunning"; the Amish do.


:rolleyes: that’s a lie.

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Mormonicious »

Funny DCP but REAL Mormon Prophets and Apostles teach differently.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

The following quotation appears in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith during his service as Church historian and recorder: “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”2

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”3

STUPID ____ Mormons, Making up doctrine, changing with the wind and every other unholy and impure practice.

All HAIL Google GOD (who found this teaching for me) and her son eBay and the Holy Toaster youtube.
Revelation 2:17 . . give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Thank Google GOD for her son eBay, you can now have life eternal with laser engraving. . oh, and a seer stone and save 10% of your life's earning as a bonus. See you in Mormon man god Heaven Bitches!!. Bring on the Virgins

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Kishkumen »

I don’t see the point in dredging up these prejudiced statements about leave-takers. I am not surprised such statements were made, but I don’t find them valuable. I don’t know any ex-Mos who are wrecks because they are ex-Mos. There are people who are having a rough go of it. They can be Mos, never-Mos, or ex-Mos. We should be there to pick them up, not diagnose them as deficient because they made the “wrong” religious choice.
"I think the religious debates in America, where they fail is people will joke around in a rather mean and rude way, and they'll put other people down as opposed to being respectful when they debate." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

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lol. Just in case it isn't clear to anyone, this post was constructed entirely for the purpose of trolling, I mean, there literally wasn't a single other thing the author had in mind than to infuriate his perceived enemies. Somebody please explain to me how any other explanation could possibly make sense.

the sad thing is, that while he and the boys (except M) probably make exception IRL and just want to provoke the good Dr. Detroit and a few stragglers over here, there probably are a decent number of LDS lurkers who either feel justified by their hardline policies with apostates now or feel like their soft policy should be reconsidered.

Cannon wrote:but traitors–those who betray their brethren–He–I was going to say–despises them; at any rate they fall under His displeasure; they become like wrecks,


Symmachus can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that within any language or worldview, the greatest insult, the greatest accusation that one can lay upon another, especially a close friend or kin, is that of being a "traitor". So serious it is, that as I understand it, even Genghis Khan killed those who betrayed their own Kahns, his enemies, in order to help him.

You just can't say something worse to a human being than that, and I'd love for DCP or the others to say it to my face. I'd like to see if they really could do it.

But DCP, " our "despising" non-believers, is grossly overwrought and exaggerated."

I see, he just perceives them as traitors who fall under his displeasure, and consider them wrecks -- he "almost" said "despises" but not quite; so you guys are exaggerating!

As I said, there is really no other way to understand this OP as anything other than outright trolling.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Post by Kishkumen »

Quite so, Dean Robbers, and, at the same time, it is pretty irresponsible.
"I think the religious debates in America, where they fail is people will joke around in a rather mean and rude way, and they'll put other people down as opposed to being respectful when they debate." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Re: “gone missing”? Or just “buried before dead”?

Post by Gadianton »

Lynn Johnson wrote:David B: He doesn't say "despise" but rather says he was tempted to say it. Are you free of temptations?


How stupid can people be? If you nearly say that you despise somebody, but stop yourself, that means that you *do* despise them, but for the sake of maintaining appearances you hold your tongue.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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