Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I, II, III

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Paul,

Here is an interesting tidbit regarding how contemporaries of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo viewed his ability to recognize and translate Egyptian and it involves the Kinderhook plates. This is from an 1843 letter from Parley and Orson Pratt to a John Van Cott.

We are all in good spirits as a people & rapidly increaseing in numbers I have no further news except that six plates having the appearance of Brass have lately been dug out of a mound by a gentleman in Pike Co. Illinois, they are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah his bones were found in the same vase (made of Cement) part of the bones had crumbled to dust & the other part were part preserved the bones were 15 ft. under ground. The gentlemen who found them were unconnected with this church but have brought them to Joseph Smith for examination & translation a large number of Citizens here have seen them and compared the characters with those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this city. I have no time for particulars but you will] hear more soon on this subject.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Shulem »

I am 100% positive that the Book of Abraham translation tendered by Joseph Smith was a complete fraud. Pious or otherwise, it was a fraud.

I am having feelings and thoughts that Brian M. Hauglid is coming to this same conclusion, although it has been slow in coming, the end result is conclusive.

How do I know this? Well, I don't. It's just a vibration and feeling I have that he's about had it with the Book of Abraham.

Brian?

:question:

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Shulem »

Parley P Pratt wrote:they are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language

I trust Parley Pratt is getting his information directly from Joseph Smith who is credited with translating Egyptian from both gold plates and papyrus. He's the authority in the church when it comes to translating Egyptian.

Parley P Pratt wrote:contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah

There was only one man in the church who had the authority to make such a statement and that is President Joseph Smith. The man who made up the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham was also making that up. Sounds just like more crap out of the mouth of the lying prophet, Joseph Smith. What comes around goes around in that he fooled others and was fooled himself.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Today's thought:

1. "The Book of Mormon;
an account written by the hand of Mormon
upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi"

Compare to:

2. The Book of Abraham;
an account written by the hand of Abraham
upon papyrus taken from the catacombs of Egypt

Image

Gotcha!

:exclaim:

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI, HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
1 Nephi 1
[3] And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
[17] But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life.


2 Nephi 12
[8] Their land is also full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made.
THE BOOK OF OMNI
Omni 1
[9] Now I, Chemish, write what few things I write, in the same book with my brother; for behold, I saw the last which he wrote, that he wrote it with his own hand; and he wrote it in the day that he delivered them unto me. And after this manner we keep the records, for it is according to the commandments of our fathers. And I make an end.
THE BOOK OF MOSIAH



THIRD NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
3 Nephi 3
[5] Therefore I have written this epistle, sealing it with mine own hand, feeling for your welfare, because of your firmness in that which ye believe to be right, and your noble spirit in the field of battle.
3 Nephi 5
[11] And behold, I do make the record on plates which I have made with mine own hands.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Shulem »

A clear pattern is established:

Nephi wrote:I make it with mine own hand . . . upon plates which I have made with mine own hands

Chemish wrote:I saw the last which he wrote, that he wrote it with his own hand

Giddianhi & Mormon wrote:sealing it with mine own hand . . . I have made with mine own hands

Abraham wrote:preserved in mine own hands . . . and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record

Joseph Smith wrote:Image

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Shulem »

I'm working on Part II but cannot say when it will be done. I don't know whether I'll add it to the existing link of Part I or create a separate page. Suggestions? Input?

One thing is for sure, there are some big surprises coming down the pike and I will be showcasing important aspects of the Book of Abraham from points of view that have not been heretofore discussed. Even Kerry-baby is going to be blown away, lol. I want to blow you all away! I can feel the passion vibrating in me to get this job done and make huge waves, overpowering waves!

Apologists have a narrow way at looking at things. They are trapped in their testimony boxes and only see what they want to see and try and fit things in their testimony paradigm. That's where I come in! I'm going to blow the lids of powder kegs so you all enjoy fireworks. It's going to get really interesting! I just had another bloody revelation -- a big thought that I'd not thought before which surprises the hell out of me. Something about Abraham in Egypt and the records kept!

Stay tuned! Don't get left behind!

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by fetchface »

I prefer separate pages. It is easier for me to remember that I made it to part II than it is for me to remember where I am in the document when I am roughly halfway through something massive.

Of course, I have a full-time job and teenagers to drive everywhere when I get home so I end up not having time to read large posts in one sitting!
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:First and foremost, in order for the church to believe that the papyrus was a genuine autograph written by Abraham’s own hand it would necessitate a claim that the very papyrus in question must be as old as Abraham, some 4,000 years ago! That is exactly what the saints preached and that is exactly what they believed with faith and spirit and did so under the direction and blessing of Joseph Smith himself.


But today's Mormons love to deny such things and may admit that some Mormons back then believe the papyrus and mummies were really that old but that Joseph Smith never claimed that to be so.

Wrong! And, I think it will be necessary to add a little more to my website, Part I, proving that Joseph Smith claimed the papyrus was as old as an original autograph:

Joseph Smith
Times and Seasons November 1, 1843 wrote:
. . . and the fact is, that by the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies! . . .

And to close, let me say in the name of Jesus Christ . . .

most obt. servt.,

JOSEPH SMITH.



In the name of Jesus Christ, Stupid ____ Mormons!

:lol:

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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So, I mean, so, forget Smokey-baby and his Jew friends. Smokey-baby has a bird brain -- pickle brain soaked in brine water from the Tribe of Do-do. It's time to get back to what really counts, folks -- The Book of Abraham! Isn't that right, Smokey-baby? Come to Shulem so I can spank you!

So, I think a little treat is in order for public consumption, right here on Shades's board where original thoughts and ideas come to mind. Here is a sneak preview of Part II where the Two Rolls (Not Joseph Smith's hot buttery squeezable buns) come to play. Later, I'll be covering Smith's mummies and what he said about that. The church today surely doesn't want to discuss what Smith said about the mummies. You can be sure the church doesn't want to discuss the Rolls or the Mummies. But I will! And I'm going to hit Joseph Smith across the side of his head with them both! I'm going to hit Joseph Smith so hard it will knock him out cold and his stupid little church too.

Part II Sneak preview wrote:
<snip>

There are two possible outcomes to what may have happened to Abram’s papyrus after he left Egypt:

1. The original papyrus remained in Egypt
2. The original papyrus was taken by Abram to Canaan and later returned to Egypt presumably by Jacob to remain with Joseph

<snip>


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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Part II Sneak preview wrote:
<snip>

There are two possible outcomes to what may have happened to Abram’s papyrus after he left Egypt:

1. The original papyrus remained in Egypt
2. The original papyrus was taken by Abram to Canaan and later returned to Egypt presumably by Jacob to remain with Joseph



:idea:

Important aspects involving chronology of the patriarchs must not be overlooked. It is understood that according to the story, ABRAM took his wife SARIAH to Egypt and penned a record upon papyrus by his own hand and according to Joseph Smith this papyrus roll was found on the bosom of a mummy. Abram’s sojourn into Egypt was temporary, a visit to escape famine in Canaan. Biblical narrative informs us that after Abram returned to the land of Canaan at age 99 his name was changed to ABRAHAM and a year later Isaac was born. But what happened to Abram’s original Egyptian papyrus roll? Where did it go and where did it end up? The Book of Abraham informs us that Abram had chronological records of his fathers on his very person saying, “The records have come into my hands; which I hold unto this present time.” Moreover, the records of the fathers were preserved in his own hands in which he declared, “have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record.”

With that said, it seems that Abram was busy writing his own story upon family records to include details about his personal journey leading from his native homeland and finally into Egypt. That is where the Book of Abraham story ends. It’s reasonable in every respect to assume that Abram took his sacred family records with him when he left Egypt. But what of the roll consisting of the Book of Abraham that was written by his own hand upon papyrus, what happened to it? At some point according to Smith it ended up in the arms of the mummy that was excavated in Thebes of Upper Egypt. Pointedly, it should be noted that the tombs of Thebes are hundreds of miles south of the Nile Delta where the Israelites dwelt. In addition, Abraham’s roll would join up with Joseph’s roll who according to the bible was sold into Egypt at the age of 17 and by age 40 became Pharaoh’s vizier some 190 years after Isaac was born in the land of Canaan — many years after Abraham’s Egyptian sojourn. All this raises huge questions and massive chronological gaps in Egyptian time and space.

:question:

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Part II Sneak preview wrote:
There are two possible outcomes to what may have happened to Abram’s papyrus after he left Egypt:

1. The original papyrus remained in Egypt
2. The original papyrus was taken by Abram to Canaan and later returned to Egypt presumably by Jacob to remain with Joseph

<snip>



:idea: :exclaim:

Either way, there is a separation of over 200 years between the time Abram penned his roll and when Joseph penned his sometime after his release from prison. Assume Abram’s roll remained in Egypt, it’s difficult to fathom how it managed to end up with Joseph hundreds of years later! Abram’s era in Egyptian dynastic history is within the 12th Dynasty of the Middle Kingdom and Joseph’s era approaches the Second Intermediate Period. It’s difficult to conceive how Abram’s papyri detailing the hostility of an Asiatic god (Jehovah) towards Pharaoh’s priesthood could be tolerated in the powerful 12th Dynasty and preserved in the archives. The Mormons chalked it up as a miracle under God’s divine providence and publicized fantastic claims. Modern Egyptology would have to fantasize and break with convention in order to accommodate the joining of the Two Rolls in dynastic Egypt under those circumstances. To conclude that Asiatic records were shipped south and buried in the catacombs of Thebes cannot be substantiated by any evidence.

But what if Abram took his roll with him and it was later returned by his grandson Jacob when retiring to Egypt to live with his sons? Would this provide a way for the joining of the Two Rolls? The answer is, yes! If that were the case then it’s easy to imagine Joseph assuming custody of his great grandfather’s papyrus and placing it in a chest with his own records. The Two Rolls would lay side by side as a testimony of God’s patriarchs in Egypt! But this solution doesn’t come without problems, in fact, it’s dead on arrival. Here’s why:

According to the bible, Israel’s sojourn in Egypt began with Jacob when he stood before Pharaoh and blessed the king. The children of Israel were given the land of Goshen in the eastern Delta of the Nile, Lower Egypt. Joseph lived an additional 70 years and was embalmed: “So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt” (Gen 50:26). The tribes of Israel resided in Goshen until the Exodus. Joseph’s sons (Manasseh and Ephraim) carried on his bloodline. The house of Levi descended with Kohath, Amram, and Moses who assumed authority over all the tribes. Moses led the Exodus and took charge of Joseph’s mummy:

“And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.” ( Ex 13:19)

Here we learn that Joseph’s bones, his very mummy, were carried home in a coffin in which he lay. It’s certainly reasonable to think that the Two Rolls were with Joseph’s mummy including the sacred records had by the patriarchs of old. It’s incredible if not unthinkable that the scrolls penned by the hands of Abraham and Joseph would have been left behind to waste in a musty catacomb of Egypt! The idea that the rolls were shipped to Thebes some 300 miles south of where the Israelites dwelt stretches the imagination to the breaking point.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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The Ta-sherit-Min scroll and the Hor scroll were not buried/found on the same mummy. Hor was male and Ta-sherit-Min was a female.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham

Post by Amore »

Shulem wrote:***FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE***

I decided to assemble and craft this work and release it online now as Part I!

Enjoy. If you like it, then by all means share it with others!


Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

You won't be disappointed, enjoy!

Impressive!
You’ve included interesting facts many of us and especially TBMs didn’t know, like...

“Smith was adamant that the word Mormo (Greek female spirit) had no relation to the word Mormon...”

But more importantly, it seems the point is that much of Mormon doctrine is not founded on accurate truth which it has been claimed to.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Fence Sitter wrote:The Ta-sherit-Min scroll and the Hor scroll were not buried/found on the same mummy. Hor was male and Ta-sherit-Min was a female.


Right-e-o, and I do plan on diving into the mummies and presenting that in Part II in a no-nonsense sort of way in which the ORIGINAL Mormons (not today's fake Mormons), with Smith at the head, staked their fantastic claims. I believe Part I coupled with Part II will prove a valuable resource for anybody researching this subject and wanting to just know the facts as they were. We want to hear from Joseph Smith, not Hugh Nibley! We want to hear from Oliver Cowdery, not John Gee. Today's Mormons are irrelevant when it comes to the origins of Smith's Book of Abraham. When Smith talks the talking is DONE! Final. The buck stops with Joseph Smith. Today's Mormons are nothing more than apostates who have thrown Smith & Cowdery under the bus. Today's apologists are brutal and extremely deceptive.

There is no question that Smith & Cowdery claimed to have original autographs, papyrus penned by Abraham and Joseph -- remember, Joseph was the better scribe. I don't think the Mormons gave much though on how the Two Rolls miraculously found each other in the catacombs of Thebes when they would have been taken to Canaan. How Abram's Roll and Joseph's roll landed on their respective mummies is really an oversight from Smith's perspective which is nothing more than pure fantasy.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham

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Amore wrote:Impressive!
You’ve included interesting facts many of us and especially TBMs didn’t know


Right. Bookmark it and use it as a reference, personal or otherwise. Cut and paste all you like. It's spelled out clearly and it's non-offensive and just pretty much presenting the quotes with some commentary. My intention is to be NICE and quote those who are responsible for the Book of Abraham.

I've cherry picked my favorite references to make the points I feel need to be made. It need not be long. It need not be scholarly. It just needs to show the facts and have a good ring to it. That's what I'm trying to accomplish. Look, Joseph Smith said such and such and the Spirit said so too! Now YOU decide!

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Shulem wrote:There is no question that Smith & Cowdery claimed to have original autographs, papyrus penned by Abraham and Joseph -- remember, Joseph was the better scribe. I don't think the Mormons gave much though on how the Two Rolls miraculously found each other in the catacombs of Thebes when they would have been taken to Canaan. How Abram's Roll and Joseph's roll landed on their respective mummies is really an oversight from Smith's perspective which is nothing more than pure fantasy


Not to mention the fact that for the missing scroll theory to hold up we would have to be missing just the parts from two different scrolls which mentioned Abraham and Joseph. It beggars belief.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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Fence Sitter wrote:Not to mention the fact that for the missing scroll theory to hold up we would have to be missing just the parts from two different scrolls which mentioned Abraham and Joseph. It beggars belief.


The missing roll theory is like a bag of empty water. You have a bag that holds no water. Why no water? Because there is a hole in the bottom and when one tries to fill the bag it pours out from the bottom and the bag is never filled.

The same goes for Facsimile No. 3. We have the Facsimile -- the vignette in its fullness. We have the persons drawn therein and the writing which gives a description of those persons. But we see that Joseph Smith's Explanations are nothing more than a hole at the bottom of the bag wherein the bag can never hold the water which he supplied.

Missing Roll theorists are not happy with what Facsimile No. 3 does to their theory and the unlikely possibilities required to make their theory true. It becomes more remote the more you you look at it. The Missing Roll theory just gets smaller and smaller until you can't see it anymore.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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For Joseph Smith, his knowledge of ancient Egypt was derived solely from what he was able to read in the bible and perhaps other scanty resources available in his day. But as a whole, Smith had no idea how political Egyptian dynastic structures were constructed and the chronological periods that played out in both Upper and Lower Egypt. For Smith to simply place his Two Rolls (Abraham & Joseph) in the catacombs of Thebes was a wild and crazy guess on his part. He blindly inserts his story into ancient Egypt having no idea what he was doing and the kind of historical contradictions he was creating out of thin air.

It's a nightmare scenario for LDS apologists such as John Gee to try and defend the original autographs claimed by Smith & Cowdery -- the true founders of Mormonism and the Book of Abraham. You would have to invent a fairytale and come up with ridiculous ideas about redactions and copies of copies and all kinds of silly nonsense generated from the minds of apologists who are in denial. There is simply no way the Two Rolls were taken to Thebes and given an Egyptian burial. No way. It's impossible or, not possible. It didn't happen -- only in Smith's mind! Who wants to live in Smith's mind? Not me! Hell no, that's crazy.

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

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And on another note, we never did get the Book of Joseph as promised. No, the Book of Joseph was never translated and God decided to not reveal it to the church. The Book of Joseph must not be very important. I don't think Emma believed her husband. I think she knew it was all a put on. The papyrus was sold for a mess of pottage. Emma knew it wasn't really Joseph's book, she knew her husband was a liar and a conman. Emma must have known better than anyone!

So much for God's Book of Joseph. What a joke! isn't that right, God? I think God and I can agree on that.

:lol:

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Re: Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I

Post by Fence Sitter »

Shulem wrote:And on another note, we never did get the Book of Joseph as promised.


Since we still have the Ta-sherit-Min scroll stick of Joseph and the seer stone, I see no reason why the current seer presiding over the church could not look through the stone to see what Joseph wrote.Does anyone know if Nelson owns a hat?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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