Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologies?

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Dr Moore
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Ah. Ok. I saw that too.

Can’t know for sure what happened unless someone asks Disqus (not Patheos, I believe) via a support ticket. If you were banned and then unbanned, maybe the site continues to show the message for a while. Maybe it’s a glitch. I’m happy to submit a ticket to learn more. Would think they would want to resolve any glitch and would be forthright about account history and whether/when a ban was put on and taken off.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr Moore wrote:Ah. Ok. I saw that too.

Can’t know for sure what happened unless someone asks Disqus (not Patheos, I believe) via a support ticket. If you were banned and then unbanned, maybe the site continues to show the message for a while. Maybe it’s a glitch. I’m happy to submit a ticket to learn more. Would think they would want to resolve any glitch and would be forthright about account history and whether/when a ban was put on and taken off.


Go for it. THIS MYSTERY MUST BE SOLVED.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

I dunno, Dr. Moore...has he already blown it?:

Daniel Peterson wrote:An ex-Latter-day Saint critic, having read my blog entry from yesterday entitled “Well? Does Qur’an 9:11 prophesy that “the wrath of the eagle” will cleanse the lands of the Arabs?”, lauds my demolition of the purported Qur’anic prophecy of the eagle that will clean out the Arab lands (or “the lands of Allah”).

[SNIP!]

Umm, well . . . Perhaps he, umm, should have, like, read what I posted with more care?

[SNIP!]

My guess is that he was so eager to criticize me that he didn’t bother to read what I’d actually written. (He’s done that many times before.)


So, he starts off by telling his readership that the critic in question is an "ex-Latter-day Saint." Why's that relevant, exactly? Then, he goes on to accuse this person of having poor literacy skills. Quite insulting! I thought that the spirit of the deal was to ratchet down the nastiness? By the way, he's responding to Philo Sofee's post here.

Tough call, Dr. Moore. If it was up to me, I would argue that he has forfeited the $10,000--and wow, he only managed to last a few hours! LOL!
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I was kind of trying to save Dr. Moore $10,000 with my ‘eyes wide open’ post on page 2. He should know, if he doesn’t already, that Mr. Peterson lies openly and routinely. He is, in fact, the bald faced liar (projection seems to be his forte).

I hope the good doctor reconsiders giving Mr. Peterson this feather in his cap when his internet addiction is still in full blown control of him.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Philo Sofee »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I was kind of trying to save Dr. Moore $10,000 with my ‘eyes wide open’ post on page 2. He should know, if he doesn’t already, that Mr. Peterson lies openly and routinely. He is, in fact, the bald faced liar (projection seems to be his forte).

I hope the good doctor reconsiders giving Mr. Peterson this feather in his cap when his internet addiction is still in full blown control of him.

- Doc


I think giving him the money shall give him enough of the rope to completely hang himself. He is bound to misinterpret this whole thing as a bonus from God demonstrating he is in the right. He always finds a way to one upman everyone and everything in what he does. Peterson is always on top, always innocent, always correct, and always fair. Just ask him. He is literally blinded by his own rhetoric and personal glory and its why he is so vastly overly busy trying to impress everyone. He outdoes everyone in everything and it shows he is closer to Elohimhood than all the rest, which means he is better, more spiritual, more this and more that and therefore respect and being impressed is in order. It's all political pride, and it will cause his ultimate downfall, which is unfortunate. All he has to do is actually do what Jesus said to do, and swallow his pride and love one another. He just can't do it. He hasn't yet grasped what love is. The very heart and best part and it escapes him... I feel truly sorry for him.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Philo,

Yes, the challenge does require no negative personal remarks about the MD board or its members.

The speculation to as to your intent (“eager to criticize”) bothers me deeply.

It’s legitimate in my view to be confused and question whether you read the OP by referencing the content of your post (more below).

I consider it questionable to mention past attacks, even if verifiable, because it insinuates you are a serial malcontent (who cares) and is just a small step from calling you a <insert choice of bad name>.

As to non personal content...

I honestly can’t tell if you made an error in reading his original post, or if he made the error in reading your logical progression.

1. OP says no such prophesy exists. Presumably, it is commonly assumed that the prophecy does exist. And presumably there is context as to why it matters if the prophecy exists or not — specifically, related to 9/11 and America (“eagle”). One can see this being a nasty battleground subject! Esp with Sept 11 just around the corner.

2. Your response appears, to me, to assert it is similarly fallacious for Mormons who believe in non existent yet faith promoting prophecies ascribed to Joseph. Logical enough. But is that what you meant, or was it more broad regarding other purported prophecies? My re reading of your post doesn’t help clarify that.

What Joseph Smith prophecies are you referencing? All of them? Just the purported ones he didn’t really make? Or just the purported ones for which fulfillment is a dubious matter for fair minded people? I’m actually more confused the more I read your post (sorry!). If it was me, I would have asked you to clarify. You draw a parallel to how the world interprets certain obvious canards attributed to Joseph Smith. Which ones?

3. Dan’s response presents a confused reading of your post. I can identify with that. But again, not sure I understand why it’s productive to assume insight about your nefarious intent without first clarifying what your post meant in the first place.

Legit concerns about the negative chatter re Philo. I appreciate the heads up guys. At the same time let me just also say that this is a really interesting point of debate, which would be even more interesting without all of the daggers. Just saying.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Speaking of prophesies, we can see--once again--why Dr. Robbers is the Dean of Cassius. These comments are from the same blog entry that attacks Philo:

Kiwi57 wrote:One wonders why Dan would be surprised that an ex "Mormon" critic would fail to understand what he had read. Getting things wrong is what exMo's do. (That's why they are exMo's.)

Furthermore, the kind of error in view is something I see very frequently from that side of the aisle. It's rather as if they are less interested in getting the facts right than in finding something to criticise. (Or complain about.)

Funny, that.


Midgley wrote:In my rather extensive experience, I have never witnessed Dan shouting. I have been known to raise my voice a little to get the attention of someone. Dan never even does that. Dan even has a difficult time not always being nice. Even when there is much provocation. I am, however, not quite as nice as Dan. What Dan has posted above is as strongly worded as I have ever seen before.


Wow! I guess Midgley wasn't present when DCP told Blair Hodges to "go to hell"? (Or I guess he said it really softly?) This is hilarious: "What Dan has posted above is as strongly worded as I have ever seen before." I guess he never saw Dan's legal threats against various people? Maybe those were "weakly" worded, by comparison?

And I am not sure what to make of the new poster called "Mr. Sweeps." Is this meant to be a parody of Midgley's writing style?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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moksha
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by moksha »

By any chance, was Dr. Peterson's chosen charity the Quranic Home for Decommissioned Eagles?
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Dr Moore
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Doctor Scratch,

Your first quote reminds me of a question that crosses my mind almost every day, and has done so since 2014.

Is it possible for a person to honestly and sincerely study the church — the gospel, scriptures, history, teachings and doctrine — and arrive at a confirmatory, peaceful conclusion that the foundational claims of Mormonism are mostly false and/or man made?

I think some well meaning individuals, in their zeal (including myself as a young missionary), opt for the black and white answer to this question: of course not! If they’re exMo, it is because they excel at getting things wrong. They simply didn’t look honestly enough. They weren’t sincerely studying. The Lord WILL and DOES confirm to the heart of any and every sincere truth seeker that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that the gospel is restored in the church today, and etc etc.

But unfortunately it is becoming increasingly clear that sincere and honest people do leave the church for very good, honest and valid reasons: they sought the truth and found it lacking. It isn’t because they got it wrong. It is precisely because, in their heart, mind and soul they got it all right. And that should be all right with us! We should celebrate people who are brave enough to change when their lived truth leads them to change.

It is unfair and extraordinarily harmful for members of the church to claim that those who leave are somehow duplicitous or false. That simply isn’t true. It’s wrong.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by fetchface »

I've only had one prayer answered in the way that the LDS church teaches that it should be. I prayed to ask about Joseph's practice of polygamy and I experienced a strong feeling of peace and certainty that what Joseph did was wrong and that I should not follow the LDS church. Now, I think that was generated by my own brain, but what does it say that this is the only answer to a prayer that I have ever received, having spent my entire life in the church?
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

DCP > Dr Moore, a day ago,

Dr Moore: "Shall we agree that the $10k is in your hands to distribute to worthy causes on fulfillment of the following terms?
1. No derogatory mention of Dr. Shades board, or its members, through end of Feb. 2020. By yourself, and as host of this site, by your good faith effort to moderate such comments by others here.
2. Nothing in the deal limits your range to express conviction on and debate issues of interest."

That's certainly acceptable to me. I will continue to feel free to respond to issues, but I will not mention the Shades board nor anybody on it, not even by means of a nickname for a pseudonym, until at least 1 March 2020.

(Of course, if somebody who posts there says or does something ELSEWHERE that merits comment, that will be a different matter....

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4601356652


Of course DCP adds an extra condition. Gad warned about exactly that, iirc.

Dr Moore:

Yes, the challenge does require no negative personal remarks about the MD board or its members.


Peterson has now added the condition that if he reads something somewhere else written by someone he assumes is from MD, he will be commenting. Is that condition what you were expecting, Dr Moore?

For example, DCP regularly assumes the hate mail he receives comes from a member of this board, and he has said hateful things about this board, in the context of that assumption. He will continue to do so, under his extra “condition,” right, Dr Moore?

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

We shall see Lemmie. At the end of the day, spirit and letter factor into the outcome!

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Dr Moore wrote:We shall see Lemmie. At the end of the day, spirit and letter factor into the outcome!

:lol: But of course! Idealism is a lovely sentiment, and certainly worthy of effort.
Gadianton:

And so if you go through with this, I would strongly suggest that you hold him to "good faith" moderation of his blog,and have a keen sense IF he tries to beat the system by having the war continued by other means or other parties.


I was wondering, are you planning to donate the money now, or at the end of the 6 months, upon completion of the conditions? Not that it’s any of my business of course, so feel free to ignore or answer that question as you prefer.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

Dr Moore wrote:We shall see Lemmie. At the end of the day, spirit and letter factor into the outcome!


I agree, and I think it's very likely that you will once again be proven generous, erring on the side of charity towards your fellow man.

But there is an objective element to your wager that I find fascinating: How does policy shape behavior? I think you clearly believe that policy can shape behavior towards good. I'm skeptical. I've been taught that rational agents exploit these arrangements. Example: Steve Levitt in his Freakonomics work explained he'd give a candy to his 3-year-old daughter to use the restroom. The outcome was that his daughter would go a little, get a candy, go a little more, and eventually clean house on candies (and he was an econ Ph.D. at the time). A policy might fail to achieve its aim even though participants act in good faith. For instance, government stimulus spending might happen on the up-and-up but fail to result in economic recovery.

You alone are qualified to determine whether or not the participants meet your terms. However, as a betting man myself, I would like to enter into a gentleman's wager with you: I have 10$ that says Sic et Non as a whole will not appreciably lower its volume of invective towards this board.

Determining whether policy is effective is its own puzzle, and will be a subjective call. I have a plan for making the decision about as fair as it's going to get: For one, it won't depend on your opinion or mine. If you are interested in exploring this wager, I shall write up preliminary terms and conditions for it.

thank you for your consideration. Don't think that 10$ is "nothing" -- I think you can get at least two of those freezy drinks you like from Taco Bell, right? And it would cover a 22 oz. Arrogant Bastard IPA from Stone Brewery for me, with money left over for a gourmet can of chili of my choice.
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Dean Robbers,

I love a good wager. You’re on. How will we measure success or failure?

Really though, I also wonder if the experiment will do anything to raise the personal attack bar.

Not just from there to here, but from here to there too.

It’s amazing to me the level of insight you all produce. There are some wicked smart people here!!

But then this incisive intellect is often wrapped in this or that version of “DCP is a liar” or “DCP is an idiot”. Even if a person is actually both of those things, how is calling them names helpful?

Maybe it’s hopeless because at the end of the day, Mormonism forces everyone to straddle a sword - be on the right side and be truthful or the wrong side and a liar.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

Dr Moore wrote:Dean Robbers,

I love a good wager. You’re on. How will we measure success or failure?

Really though, I also wonder if the experiment will do anything to raise the personal attack bar.

Not just from there to here, but from here to there too.

It’s amazing to me the level of insight you all produce. There are some wicked smart people here!!

But then this incisive intellect is often wrapped in this or that version of “DCP is a liar” or “DCP is an idiot”. Even if a person is actually both of those things, how is calling them names helpful?

Maybe it’s hopeless because at the end of the day, Mormonism forces everyone to straddle a sword - be on the right side and be truthful or the wrong side and a liar.


Fantastic! I can taste victory already. But the terms must be agreed upon: I shall begin a thread with my proposed terms. You will not be able to immediately accept them as the wager will be contingent on a couple of others volunteering their services; I can't expect the names I initially submit will want to be involved just because I request it, and then you must also agree, but we do have six months; and so plenty of time.

I'm also against name-calling, Dr. Moore. I hope you have not seen these things from me personally, if so, feel free to PM me examples so that I might begin the repentance process.

As far as succeeding at raising the personal attack bar, Dr. Moore, it's for others to make their decisions about how they handle themselves, and good as your intentions might be, you can't just expect such things to happen just because you want them to. Beyond being a voice for what you think is right and finding some level of acceptance for those who aren't going to play ball; not sure what there is to do.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Gadianton wrote:
As far as succeeding at raising the personal attack bar, Dr. Moore, it's for others to make their decisions about how they handle themselves, and good as your intentions might be, you can't just expect such things to happen just because you want them to....


Good points, Gadianton. As an example, if DCP continues to plagiarize, I will continue to call him a plagiarizer, for reasons I laid out long, long ago in the long-running plagiarism thread. All I can say here is that when I call him a plagiarizer, it is always based on thorough and irrefutable documentation; hopefully this "name-calling" won't muddy the waters for your analysis.

Dr Moore wrote:

Mormonism forces everyone to straddle a sword - be on the right side and be truthful or the wrong side and a liar.

Not everything comes down to this. I call Peterson a plagiarizer because he is a plagiarizer. It is dishonest. As a Professor myself, i find it an inexcusable affront to my profession. It has nothing to do with Mormonism.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr Moore wrote:But then this incisive intellect is often wrapped in this or that version of “DCP is a liar” or “DCP is an idiot”. Even if a person is actually both of those things, how is calling them names helpful?

Maybe it’s hopeless because at the end of the day, Mormonism forces everyone to straddle a sword - be on the right side and be truthful or the wrong side and a liar.


I would like to echo Professor Lemmie's sentiments, Dr. Moore. I'm not sure how long you've been paying attention to mopologists, mopologia, and the counter-mopologetics movement, but this is an ongoing discussion spanning literal decades. So, a lot of simplistic behavior actually has its roots, deep roots, in this historical exchange. Think of it this way. Someone may look at this:

Image

and come away thinking to themselves, "This is just simple modern art crap. Whatever happened to real art, real talent, real inspiration."

And for someone who may not have a thorough background and history in the visual arts it's understandable. And telling them that the piece above is actually a fundamentally impactful, based-in-a-series-of-art-movements statement about this or that, and is in fact the 11th generation result of and is a distant commentary on this old predecessor piece:

Image

... will most likely be lost on them. So, a lot of simple statements like, "Mr. Peterson is a liar." have decades of documentation of him lying over and over and over again and again. In fact, the statement itself, "Mr. Peterson is a liar." has historical context and has a sort of running understanding on the board.

At the end of the day, your intentions are laudable and I know I personally admire the ethos from which it springs. What you're asking Mr. Peterson to do is so fundamentally impossible, so fundamentally against not only his character, but against decades of ingrained habitual addictive behavior you might might as well expect The Midge to start using proper grammar.

It ain't gonna happen.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Thanks friends!

It’s all good. I get it. Some people don’t change and that’s OK. Still worth trying.

After all, even Darth Vader turned at the very end to save Luke.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Exiled also captured the underlying issue Doc Cam is referring to, it’s worth another look:

“From an outside perspective of someone who hasn't been a part of the back and forth over the years, I think the problem lies with having to defend or self-appointing oneself to defend Mormonism, a religion with patently false claims. Our apologist brothers over at sic et non must have faced a lot of ridicule from the outside world for being out front defending the indefensible over the years.”

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Physics Guy »

We had a discussion here a while ago about how my brother considered Mormonism to be "the most obviously made-up religion" and I found I couldn't help agreeing, even though I'm generally pretty generous in conceding that weird beliefs could be reasonable from some point of view. Lately it has occurred to me, though, that being "obviously made-up" is a bit paradoxical. If you're making up a religion you normally try hard to make it seem not-made-up. You could almost mount an apologetic argument from this. Joseph Smith must have been a true prophet because a con artist would surely have done better than that.

I think this is really only an apparent paradox, however. Smith did quite a good job of making up a religion that would appeal to his contemporaries—and that's precisely why his religion looks so phony today.

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