Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologies?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Doctor Scratch
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
Posts: 7801
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Drs. Moore and CamNC4me:

I'm grateful for your thorough and ethically sound peer review of my work. You may very well be correct that I have "been a tad pugilistic." I will add, though, that my remarks are always contextual, and connected to a long history of Mopologetics. Dr. Moore, for example, is relatively new to this scene, and it may be that he's unaware of (e.g.) Dr. Peterson's own problematic behavior on the issue of race: e.g., his posting of lynching photos as a "joke," or his stated admission that he advised interracial couples against marrying because it would be "challenging." Or what about this appalling article from Bill Hamblin?:

Bill Hamblin wrote:Bigotry

All one needs to do to see the bigotry on this board is replace the ubiquitous terms Morg and Morgbot with Kike. Try the following on for size:

“I get mad every time I think about those Kikes. The Kikes are so clannish; and they wear funny cloths. Those stupid Kikes always do what their Rabbis tell them. They think they should be obedient to God. What mindless Kikebots. They actually have 613 commandments; count ’em—six hundred and thirteen. This proves they’re a mind-control cult. You know, Kikes have committed murder and embezzled money. In fact, when a Kike commits murder, it’s because he’s a Kike. There is something about those Kikes that makes them violent. The Kikes are all rich, too. They control the money and politics of New York. Not just New York, they control Hollywood too, and want to control the politics of the entire country. Indeed, they are a threat to freedom and democracy. And their kosher rules are so-ooo stupid. They make me want to gag. Why shouldn’t I eat a cheeseburger if I want to? You can’t get a good ham sandwich in a Kike deli. I want a ham sandwich, and I’m not going to let those Kikes stop me from eating it. I sure hate those Kikes! They drive me nuts.”

It simply won’t do to insist that you’re not really a bigot because what you believe about Mormonism is really true. Anti-Semites honestly think they’re not bigots either–what they believe about Jews is really true: “I’m not bigoted! There really is an international Jewish banking conspiracy.”


This is *still* archived over at FAIRMormon, and it is 2019, which to me says that that organization embraces this sort of rhetoric. Is it "pugilistic" to challenge the Mopologists on the question of diversity, inclusion, ethnicity, and tolerance? Maybe so, or maybe it ought to be done in a different manner. But the fact of the matter is that I remember a long history of really problematic behavior in this arena, for what it's worth. I welcome suggestions on how to approach the matter in a more productive way.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Boy, Dr. Scratch, I’d forgotten about that particular moment in Mr. Peterson’s career where he folksy-joked about these men:

Image

I think I’ll take a step back from my ‘pugilism’ comment, and admit that sometimes standing firm in one’s principles, like you’ve done over the years, taking attack after attack from the vicious smear jobs levied against you by the Church’s agents provocateurs, has gifted the world with the truth about mopologetics and the harm it has caused. My sincere apologies.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

In the conversation where kiwi calls shades ”a dedicated anti-Mormon hate propagandist,” here is Peterson’s only ‘moderation’:

DanielPeterson Dr. Shades
an hour ago

Shades, I would very much appreciate it if you would stop trolling here.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4630875741

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Sledge referring to Shades’ site as a hate site again:
Sledge Dr. Shades
2 days ago

The very first sentence of your ‘90s style hate site.
and here Sledge dictates what he think the first sentence of Shades’ site should really say:
Sledge Dr. Shades
a day ago

Here you go, and you're welcome for the word-smithing in advance:

"Warning: this is an anti-Mormon site. Nothing here is factual. This is my way of getting revenge on an organization that does mostly good throughout the world, but by which I feel betrayed because I did not fully understand it."

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4629412348

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Louis Midgley - a day ago

This morning I decided that I am no longer going to respond to gemli and his new clone, nor will I try to ever again try to explain something to Shades. or to the Little Old Donkey. I suppose that we will see just how much resolve I actually have.

————————————

Louis Midgley > B. Wilson - a day ago edited

I sort of know a bit about the temptations I will face. I am much like the drunk who is never going to touch that stuff again, and then rationalizes that just one drink will not hurt. And, bang, they are back in the mire.


I wonder if Dr. Moore’s offer gets a reset now that SeN’s ‘drunk’ has committed to sobriety once again?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Xenophon »

But will he disable the Google Alert that seems to drive him to the "drinking"?
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

User avatar
Gadianton
Hermit
Posts: 9679
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Sadly, Dean Robbers, these were the very clear terms of the deal:

Indeed, you are right. There's a reason why you hold the B. H. Roberts chair.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

User avatar
Gadianton
Hermit
Posts: 9679
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

Shades, I would very much appreciate it if you would stop trolling here.

I've seen this same logic about another matter very recently.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Louis Midgley -> jcwo • 2 days ago • edited

juwo: I am, of course, educated in certain fields of knowledge. I see myself as an intellectual historian who focuses attention on philosophy and theology. And I was and would like to think I am also an educator. And I defend the faith of Latter-day Saints. But I have said nothing about accolades and accomplishments. I see myself as a mere soldier in a certain field, but not the captain of a ship.

Soldiers take orders. I have to wonder who's been giving The Midge his marching orders?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Doctor Scratch
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
Posts: 7801
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Dr. Moore:

Can you confirm that the $10,000 deal with the Mopologists has been voided?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Dear Doctor,

Forgive me, I was in the Sierra Nevada mountains hiking for the past 4 days, with only sporadic web access. Rather than spend the time brooding over Dr. Peterson's blog, I instead used my precious kilobytes of intermittent connectivity to answer work emails and enjoy a few indulgent readings of current topics on this board.

I am now updating my records as it relates to the present exercise with Dr. Peterson. The data so far is, in a word, heavy. As Dr. Emmett Brown said, "There's that word again. 'Heavy.' Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational pull?"

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Dr Moore wrote:Dear Doctor,

Forgive me, I was in the Sierra Nevada mountains hiking for the past 4 days, with only sporadic web access. Rather than spend the time brooding over Dr. Peterson's blog, I instead used my precious kilobytes of intermittent connectivity to answer work emails and enjoy a few indulgent readings of current topics on this board....

:rolleyes: a lack of connectivity certainly reduces time available. Speaking hypothetically of course, asking others to brood for you would be considered a waste of their time as well; a lesson worth remembering....

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

It seems to me Dr. Moore is in a bit of a pickle. The mopologists didn't meet the criteria of the agreement, however he has succeeded in facilitating a sort of grudging reduction in rhetoric aimed at this board and, apparently, some of the regulars on SeN. The Midge, instead of just being genial, has decided to ignore Gemli and has asked others to do the same. This could be taken as progress, and I hope Gemli's insights are now free from being sidetracked with constant personal attacks.

Hope that's worth $10,000!

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:It seems to me Dr. Moore is in a bit of a pickle. The mopologists didn't meet the criteria of the agreement, however he has succeeded in facilitating a sort of grudging reduction in rhetoric aimed at this board and, apparently, some of the regulars on SeN. The Midge, instead of just being genial, has decided to ignore Gemli and has asked others to do the same. This could be taken as progress, and I hope Gemli's insights are now free from being sidetracked with constant personal attacks.

Hope that's worth $10,000!

- Doc


I feel for gemli. He has asked a number of times, obviously in bewilderment, why midgley takes the approach he does. It’s a painful introduction to mopologetics.

User avatar
Gadianton
Hermit
Posts: 9679
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

While it could be considered progress, clearly he is looking to shun Gemli, in order to encourage him to leave. Well yes, he wants his boss to get the 5k for Interpreter, and so the closest thing he can think of to continue his war without violating the rule is to get everyone to shun Gemli -- shunning is a tried-and-true fundamentalist tactic. Of course, what he's probably not self-aware enough to understand, is that if Gemli and other leave, then so will he. But that's besides the point, which is that there is a difference between not responding to Gemli and recommending the same to others who can't keep their cool, and recommending everyone to shun him so that he feels unwelcome and leaves.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

The $10,000 deal, as formulated with Dr. Peterson, is canceled.

As the only judge, I accept partial credit for the failure. Poor experimental construction. Too subjective were the criteria to allow for integrity to the letter while at the same time encouraging a smooth transition from from a boiling ocean to glassy pond.

Does one violation break the "best faith moderation" covenant? Two? Three? By whom? How often? Must every offending comment be deleted? What words specifically constitute an offence? How to judge implied vs explicit derogatory references? In what time frame must moderation action be taken? The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Clearly enough violations trickled through that I can not with integrity say that the letter of the arrangement has been met. The deal must be voided.

And yet, Dr. Peterson and several of his compatriots have made an impressive effort. Progress has been made. It is healthy progress. I am encouraged by what could happen with continued emphasis to wrap content in civility.

As a fellow MormonDiscussions colleague wrote a few days ago:
Kishkumen wrote:We should always think of how we might do better by our opponents than they do by us. We may be wrong in imagining we have succeeded, but we will all be better off for trying


Therefore, while the current experiment has ended, I wish to make a parting gesture to invest in the future of civility on both sides of these heated conversations.

1) I will make a lesser donation to Interpreter Foundation, as a token of my good faith in Dr. Peterson, and admiration for his sincere effort in this exercise. Thank you, Dr. Peterson, for the past month and thank you in advance for future efforts.

2) I will also be making a donation to Radio Free Mormon, as a counterbalancing show of appreciation for the cost of continued research and articulated expression about challenging topics of interest to all of us.

Lastly, a word of appreciation to many who assisted with this experiment, and whose patience I have likely tried to the breaking point. Please PM me if anything I've done here offended you.

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

The agreement is voided, so I guess it’s no surprise that after midgley attacks, maligns and speculates on jcwo’s failings- or should I say, imaginary failings that midgley has outlined, after attempting to gather IRL information on him, that Peterson comes to Midgley’s defense:
jcwo Louis Midgley
5 hours ago edited

Louis, you are a shameful individual. My family, friends, ex bishop, ex stake president all know exactly what my opinions are. I've detailed them on a number of occasions. And guess what, they didn't point me to anything that you had published as I'm sure they're aware of the effect that you're apologetic writings might have on people who have lost faith with legitimate and sincere doubts. For you to call me a coward only shows your utter lack of awareness of not only the world around you, but your own cowardice. Just because you can't comprehend the need and usefulness for internet anonymity, is no excuse to attack those that do. Is this the way you practice apologetics? When you can't challenge their ideas and criticisms, attack their character? There are a number of times that you've asked me to leave. If Dan concurs, I have no problem with that. You should, however, take note of how it reflects on you.



Avatar
DanielPeterson jcwo
2 hours ago

jcwo: "Louis, you are a shameful individual."

He isn't, actually. You don't know him.

Watch it.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... iotic.html



“Watch it”?

Here’s what Midgley said, that jcwo is responding to (same link):
Louis Midgley jcwo
21 hours ago

I have now spent 45 minutes reviewing jcwo's postings on sic et non. These are minutes I could have used in more productive ways. Five years ago jcwo had a burst of comments. I cannot tell if they were on Dan's blog. The reason is that I did not recognize any of the names of those to whom he was opining.

With a lapse of several years, jcwo was back posting on Dan's blog. He was clearly venting his hostility to what has to be his former faith.

Now he has explained that he did this to avoid "real world repercussions." This seems to be his way of wanting not to have his clients, employer, Bishop or Stake President, or husband or wife, or family members know his real opinions, since doing so would change things. To do this is clearly to lack both courage and probity, especially given that he blasts away at his former faith under a false name. It seems obvious that one who comes to no longer have faith in God, and who is paid with tithing funds ought to immediately resign and find different employment. Or they simply lack even a semblance of courage and probity.

Finally, I have yet to see any evidence that jcwo has come up with that there are the faults that he attributes--John Dehlin style, yet--to the faith of Latter-day Saints.

I am now adding jcwo to my list of those to whom I do not intend to respond again. And I urge others to do exactly the same thing. And I strongly urge jcwo to take his game somewhere else. That would be the honest thing to do, would it not?


So Dan’s response, to one who objects to this IRL digging for details and subsequent attack, based on the worst that midgley can imagine, is for that person to “watch it.”

Patheos has terms oof service, and Peterson is allowing them to be trampled on, with enthusiasm, by Midgley.

Not that Peterson cares, but yes, Dan, Midgley is “a shameful individual.” He illustrates it daily, with posts Peterson allows, in violation of his own agreement with Patheos.com.

User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder & Visionary
Posts: 14130
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr. Shades »

Dr Moore wrote:The $10,000 deal, as formulated with Dr. Peterson, is canceled.

Will you please post a link to the, uh, post that broke the camel's back? Or copy-and-paste it here?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Hi Dr. Shades,

No specific back breaking post, rather a boiling frog dilemma. The evidence is well documented in this thread.

Cheers,
M

User avatar
Doctor Scratch
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
Posts: 7801
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Your graciousness has been duly noted, Dr. Moore. This is one of *the* most important, significant, and devastating moments in the history of Mopologetics. It may be that this is even more important than the 2012 incident where the Mopologists were kicked out of the Maxwell Institute. What your experiment proves beyond any reasonable doubt is that the Mopologists care more about getting to use insulting language than they do about $10,000. This is revelatory. Recall that DCP has said many, many, many, many times that "nothing" he does in the Mopologetic realm is for "money." Well, if the goal is just to sling around vicious and abusive language, then who cares about money? But then you get to actually thinking about that question--and whether Dallin H. Oaks and Russell M. Nelson "care about money"--and you begin to understand the fundamental problems at the source of Mopologetics. Someone summon the Cruise Lady!
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Your graciousness has been duly noted, Dr. Moore. This is one of *the* most important, significant, and devastating moments in the history of Mopologetics. It may be that this is even more important than the 2012 incident where the Mopologists were kicked out of the Maxwell Institute. What your experiment proves beyond any reasonable doubt is that the Mopologists care more about getting to use insulting language than they do about $10,000. This is revelatory. Recall that DCP has said many, many, many, many times that "nothing" he does in the Mopologetic realm is for "money." Well, if the goal is just to sling around vicious and abusive language, then who cares about money? But then you get to actually thinking about that question--and whether Dallin H. Oaks and Russell M. Nelson "care about money"--and you begin to understand the fundamental problems at the source of Mopologetics. Someone summon the Cruise Lady!

Speaking of the Cruise Lady...

midgley:

...I must urge all those interested in touring Israel to join a Cruise Lady tour with the Petersons to, if possible, both Israel and Jordan. There is also another competing LDS oriented tour company that promises "fun" but delivers a lot of rubbish along the way.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4656010864

:rolleyes: Of course the other “LDS” tour is rubbish. Of course, Lou.

Not that midgley’s posting was ever really under control during the experiment, but he is back to ____:

midgley:

...There are a few others who may post because they desire attention, or they see Dan's blog as an opportunity to attack the Church of Jesus Christ. I have no intention of scratching someone's malevolent itch. And I have exactly no intention of responding to Dr. Scratch, who should be tending the virtual prison camp he owns and more or less supervises.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4662877573

As is Peterson.

DanielPeterson Mod Dr. Shades • 15 hours ago

LOL. Shades, you have ready access to a rich sample of haters.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... eauty.html

But it is Shades who, in the end, sums up Midgley’s approach exactly:

Dr. Shades DanielPeterson • 4 hours ago

Let's not turn this around on me. I'm merely commenting on the fact that Dr. Midgley appears to falsely equate disagreement with Latter-day Saint claims, however slight, as "hatred."

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4662858534

Midgley’s certainty that disagreement must mean hatred is a concept that continues to tear apart families. It is incongruous that seeking for “eternal families” in the afterlife should do such damage to actual families in the here and now, and yet, that is what is preached repeatedly by LDS leaders. It is shameful.

Post Reply