Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologies?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Sledge still referring to dr. Shades’ board as a ‘hate site’:

Sledge >> Dr. Shades
3 hours ago

Are you serious? I obviously can't post links to hate sites on Patheos, but visit your own sites, dude.

Re whether Sledge is in a ‘vector,’ i don’t know. Is that now a part of Dr Moore’s agreement? I’m just going off of this:

Dr Moore:

Shall we agree that the $10k is in your hands to distribute to worthy causes on fulfillment of the following terms?

1. No derogatory mention of Dr. Shades board, or its members, through end of Feb. 2020. By yourself, and as host of this site, by your good faith effort to moderate such comments by others here.

While it seemed obvious that “a good faith effort to moderate such comments” would not necessarily prevent all “such comments” from being posted, I did interpret it as meaning an actual “moderation,” such as elimination of the negative words, like “hate site,” etc.

However, Peterson has not eliminated a single word or engaged in any visible moderation of any of the “hate site”-type comments that have appeared since the beginning of the agreement, whether Midgley, kiwis, or anyone else posted them, so who knows.

As was pointed out earlier, no justification is needed, so I’m not asking a question, just noting the posts.

ETA: Peterson clearly has the time, ability, and inclination to moderate:

DanielPeterson >> MoreMan 5 hours ago

....And, by the way, lose the childishly insulting tone. "Danny Boy"? Grow up.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4627173679

Just not when $10,000 are on the line, apparently.

User avatar
Kishkumen
Seedy Academician
Posts: 21004
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Kishkumen »

I regret spending so much time on Mopologetics and for asking of others what they seem unable or unwilling to give. That said, all of these people we have been fighting with are human beings, and it is important to remember that. I like to think of their good points as often as I can because they definitely have their good points. The fencing about Mormonism as they envision it is not something I am all that concerned about. It is a game of a kind, both sides know it is a game, and although it does have real consequences, we are best off when we minimize them by keeping ourselves in check. We should always think of how we might do better by our opponents than they do by us. We may be wrong in imagining we have succeeded, but we will all be better off for trying.
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I believe Mr. Peterson has the ability to mark posts as spam. I’ve noticed a few posts here and there go from readable to ‘marked as spam’ and essentially deleted from view. He is, in fact, reading everything and moderating tightly.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I believe Mr. Peterson has the ability to mark posts as spam. I’ve noticed a few posts here and there go from readable to ‘marked as spam’ and essentially deleted from view. He is, in fact, reading everything and moderating tightly.

- Doc

In fairness my understanding is that some of that is handled automatically through Disqus's flagging system, then the moderator has to go back and approve those comments manually. Not to say Peterson isn't moderating them, just that it isn't a given if you see "marked as spam".
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

Ceeboo
God
Posts: 7625
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Ceeboo »

Kishkumen wrote: That said, all of these people we have been fighting with are human beings, and it is important to remember that. I like to think of their good points as often as I can because they definitely have their good points.

We should always think of how we might do better by our opponents than they do by us. We may be wrong in imagining we have succeeded, but we will all be better off for trying.

Image

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I believe Mr. Peterson has the ability to mark posts as spam. I’ve noticed a few posts here and there go from readable to ‘marked as spam’ and essentially deleted from view. He is, in fact, reading everything and moderating tightly.

- Doc

In fairness my understanding is that some of that is handled automatically through Disqus's flagging system, then the moderator has to go back and approve those comments manually. Not to say Peterson isn't moderating them, just that it isn't a given if you see "marked as spam".

What does that mean so I don’t have to pretend I know what that means?

Eta: https://help.disqus.com/en/articles/171 ... g-comments

also

https://help.disqus.com/en/articles/171 ... or-removed

I just find it really peculiar the ones experiencing this issue aren’t within Dan’s ‘vector’.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What does that mean so I don’t have to pretend I know what that means?

- Doc
It has been a hot minute since I moderated anything through Disqus but when I did if enough users flag a comment (see example of flagging below) it would automatically go into a "pending" state that a moderator then has to go push it out of, either approving or removing the post. During that pending state is when you see both "marked as spam" or "comment awaiting moderation". There was some internal logic at Disqus as to when enough reports triggered this auto-moderation but I don't have a lot of insight into that other than anecdotal experience and general knowledge of how other companies do it.

I should note that I don't think ignorance of the comments is much of a defense for DCP when it comes to the bet as it is pretty evident how often he reads both the comments there and here. Just pointing out that seeing that messaging isn't a perfect indication of tight moderation.

Image

ETA: I see you got it. As to this line:
Doc Cam wrote:I just find it really peculiar the ones experiencing this issue aren’t within Dan’s ‘vector’.
Lots of mods will sit on pending actions for posters they don't really care for.
Last edited by Xenophon on Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doesn’t the mod have to actually take the flagged post reported as spam and mark it as such so it disappears from the comments section if it isn’t automatically removed by Disqus filters?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Doesn’t the mod have to actually take the flagged post reported as spam and mark it as such so it disappears from the comments section if it isn’t automatically removed by Disqus filters?

- Doc
My experience was that if enough posters flagged a particular post or you triggered some specific thing Disqus auto-flags for it would be hidden until a mod took action. I think the language in the links you provided confirms that.

Comments marked as spam
Comments are removed from public view (or "disappear") when they are filtered as spam, whether manually by a site moderator or automatically by our system.
ETA: I should say it has been roughly 2 years since I modded through Disqus so my experience obviously may not reflect current practices.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21158
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think you’re suggesting a poster flagging a post as spam, or if a post trips the spam filter through site algorithms, will remove said post until a mod unflags it.

I’m saying posts are only filtered as spam by a site moderator or automatically by Disqus’ system, regardless of who reports it.

Either way, I don’t see how Dan can’t unflag a post that, say, has been hidden by the system. I don’t believe he can claim not knowing about a flag since he tightly moderates his blog. He also receives notices as a mod depending on how he himself has set his notifications.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Either way, I don’t see how Dan can’t unflag a post that, say, has been hidden by the system. I don’t believe he can claim not knowing about a flag since he tightly moderates his blog. He also receives notices as a mod depending on how he himself has set his notifications.
This part we are in total agreement on.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Posted approximately 4 pm today:
Discussion on Sic et Non 113 comments
Affixing blame for the Mountain Meadows Massace
DanielPeterson

DanielPeterson Sledge an hour ago

Sledge:

I'm not unsympathetic to your characterization of a certain place. (More than perhaps any other living person, I have reason to share your view of it.)

However, I'm trying to encourage more moderate expressions on the subject here. There is something substantial riding on that increased moderation and, anyway, heightening the difference in tone and substance between this place and that other place seems to me an obviously good thing.

So I'm asking you to forego language like "hate site" in describing that place. Please? Thanks in advance.

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What does that mean so I don’t have to pretend I know what that means?

- Doc
It has been a hot minute since I moderated anything through Disqus but when I did if enough users flag a comment (see example of flagging below) it would automatically go into a "pending" state that a moderator then has to go push it out of, either approving or removing the post. During that pending state is when you see both "marked as spam" or "comment awaiting moderation". There was some internal logic at Disqus as to when enough reports triggered this auto-moderation but I don't have a lot of insight into that other than anecdotal experience and general knowledge of how other companies do it.

I should note that I don't think ignorance of the comments is much of a defense for DCP when it comes to the bet as it is pretty evident how often he reads both the comments there and here. Just pointing out that seeing that messaging isn't a perfect indication of tight moderation.

Image

ETA: I see you got it. As to this line:
Doc Cam wrote:I just find it really peculiar the ones experiencing this issue aren’t within Dan’s ‘vector’.
Lots of mods will sit on pending actions for posters they don't really care for.


That line in your screenshot about flagging a post for “targeted harassment— hate speech targeting groups” is fascinating.

(Not to mention that a majority of Midgley’s comments should really be flagged for his targeted harassment of Gemli. Gemli takes it in stride but WOW. )

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

....We should always think of how we might do better by our opponents than they do by us. We may be wrong in imagining we have succeeded, but we will all be better off for trying.

In theory, an excellent point.

In practice, my heart goes out to gemli. He has done better by Midgley than Midgley has ever done by him, and yet, there are still probably more than a hundred severely defaming comments about his personal life that Peterson has left up on SeN, his religious site celebrating Mormon life. And by defaming I don’t mean cutesy little innuendos. I mean brutally rude, stunningly inappropriate comments about every private aspect of gemli’s personal, professional, emotional, and educational life and history. Midgley’s comments, always allowed by Peterson, are truly, truly sick. They are hurtful, ugly, and mean-spirited. You really have to be a bully to come up with what midgley posts, and Peterson gives that bully an open, lds-sanctioned, Mormon-approved pulpit.

So yes, let’s remember midgley is also a person. A person who represents himself as the pinnacle of a god-approved life, who treats other persons outside of his religion like ____. I think it’s time to admit that in this case, the trying to do better by our opponents may not apply to those pathological outliers like midgley. He deserves no respect.

I prefer to remember that gemli is also a person, who in no way deserves to be treated as Midgley treats him.

User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:03 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by malkie »

Physics Guy wrote:Does Shades have a second site? What am I missing?

Otherwise, Dr. Shades doesn't actually post here all that much. He posts regularly but not obsessively and his posts are generally short. Unless he's really fanatical over on his second site that I haven't seen yet, he seems to be dedicating much less of his life to execrating the Mormon church than numerous apologists dedicate of their lives to defending that church. It's a pretty lackadaisical execration if you ask me.

"Lackadaisical execration" might be a good name for a craft beer.

If you go to the list of members, you'll see a column for Website.

For Dr Shades, the link takes you to http://www.mormoninformation.com/

This may be what is being referred to as his other site.
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Hi everyone, how goes it?

Through private emails with Dr. Peterson, I knew he would be more or less off grid in Finland for several days. So I more or less hung back on monitoring the fruits of our experiment.

I see the efforts at moderating and deescalating as an encouraging signal. Parenthetically, is it just me or has Dr. Shades been having a real good time quietly stirring that pot?! Hehe, maybe just me and if so, then all apologies Shades, I will put Perfume on shuffle for 2 hours tonight, doubling my nascent evening ritual.

Seriously, you all are “the truth” (the urban dictionary sense) when it comes to subtleties of human thoughts and expressions. I learn so much from you good folks. Incredible comments in this thread. Really, how could anyone not love this group?

As to the Sledge affair:
1) Applaud Dr. Peterson admonishing it to stop. Thanks!
2) The Stormfront reference is problematic for me. I wish Dr. Peterson would delete or edit that comment, as it explicitly accuses everyone here of engaging in vile hate speech. Less offensive comments have been deleted or led to bans at SeN before. No one here is about real hate speech, even if emotions run high due to the content matter. I want to believe no one on SeN is about that either. Comparing someone you disagree with, however violently, to the KKK or likeminded hate groups, just crosses the line.

I believe, without knowing for sure, that such wildly offensive references don’t survive this particular “main” board of the site. Other boards, which I don’t personally visit, might, but they have essential rules too, are moderates at the extreme, and are disclaimered as such.

To say a bit more on this. I had a deal void message written up and ready to send, but then Dan posted his admonition to Sledge. It’s a dilemma. I don’t want a contest for which integrity demands one thing even if my heart and mind want something else.

Anyway, yes I am tempted to void due to the persistence of the Stormfront comment, as yet uncontested, plus notably an upvote to that comment from Kiwi57 (did you upvote that with your middle finger, Kiwi?), and seeing Dr. P moderating comments rather aggressively on the three witnesses thread in the interim.

According to Wikipedia, the mission statement for Stormfront is: “Stormfront is a resource for those courageous men and women fighting to preserve their White Western culture, ideals and freedom of speech and association—a forum for planning strategies and forming political and social groups to ensure victory.” Organized hate. Evil. Vile. Also, from what I have read, censored, broke and now defunct.

Dan, and followers, if that’s how you perceive — and wish others to perceive — the good folks (including the justifiably angry and embittered ones) here at MormonDiscussions, then I affirmatively want nothing to do with supporting you, which includes my good faith, however silly or flawed, effort to ennoble SeN with an enticement to lead the way to a more civil dialogue.

I might flip a coin later tonight.

User avatar
Gadianton
Hermit
Posts: 9679
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Gadianton »

I think Sledge brings up a great point and I hope his comment stands. Stormfront is the perfect example of a hate site, and I'm sure that's what folks have in mind when comparing this site to Stormfront. And that characterization has been made repeatedly.

Suppose for a moment that somehow we got tangled up with Stormfront. Well, in fact, to a limited extent we have. That Ajax guy in off topic was a big Stormfront participant, and a minor board event erupted when that was figured out, and so it's not totally inconceivable. Suppose that it went further, into what could be called a "board war" between this board and Stormfront. Now suppose that a new contributor to Stormfront had been trolling this board a little, but then revealed an interest in seeing the rhetoric toned down between our two boards, and so offers a deal.

I'm assuming everyone can see we've just passed what's conceivable, but I think it will be worth it to flesh it out anyway.

So this new Stormfront participant takes a "position" of some kind, with Stormfront -- I don't know what really exists in that culture but just pretend -- say he becomes a Grand Sentinel of the Stormfront Guard. He offers a deal to us, that if we will quit referring to Stormfront as a "hate site" then he'll donate 10k to the charity of our choice.

So what do we do? Wouldn't it be a horrible betrayal of principle to quit referring to a real hate site as a hate site? The only option to a severe moral lapse, is to implicitly acknowledge that such language had been mere hyperbole and potentially slanderous.

It's really psychologically fascinating some of the twists and turns this wager has taken.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

User avatar
Kishkumen
Seedy Academician
Posts: 21004
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Kishkumen »

Lemmie wrote:In theory, an excellent point.

In practice, my heart goes out to gemli. He has done better by Midgley than Midgley has ever done by him, and yet, there are still probably more than a hundred severely defaming comments about his personal life that Peterson has left up on SeN, his religious site celebrating Mormon life. And by defaming I don’t mean cutesy little innuendos. I mean brutally rude, stunningly inappropriate comments about every private aspect of gemli’s personal, professional, emotional, and educational life and history. Midgley’s comments, always allowed by Peterson, are truly, truly sick. They are hurtful, ugly, and mean-spirited. You really have to be a bully to come up with what midgley posts, and Peterson gives that bully an open, lds-sanctioned, Mormon-approved pulpit.

So yes, let’s remember midgley is also a person. A person who represents himself as the pinnacle of a god-approved life, who treats other persons outside of his religion like ____. I think it’s time to admit that in this case, the trying to do better by our opponents may not apply to those pathological outliers like midgley. He deserves no respect.

I prefer to remember that gemli is also a person, who in no way deserves to be treated as Midgley treats him.


My heart and my admiration go out to gemli because he is a model of what I advocated in deed, not theory.
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder & Visionary
Posts: 14130
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr. Shades »

Physics Guy wrote:Does Shades have a second site? What am I missing?

Here's my second site. It predates the current iteration of this site by nearly eight years:

MormonInformation.com
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley

User avatar
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 6342
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Philo Sofee »

I had no idea you had that site Shades. BOOKMARKED!
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."

User avatar
Doctor Scratch
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
Posts: 7801
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:I think Sledge brings up a great point and I hope his comment stands. Stormfront is the perfect example of a hate site, and I'm sure that's what folks have in mind when comparing this site to Stormfront. And that characterization has been made repeatedly.

Suppose for a moment that somehow we got tangled up with Stormfront. Well, in fact, to a limited extent we have. That Ajax guy in off topic was a big Stormfront participant, and a minor board event erupted when that was figured out, and so it's not totally inconceivable. Suppose that it went further, into what could be called a "board war" between this board and Stormfront. Now suppose that a new contributor to Stormfront had been trolling this board a little, but then revealed an interest in seeing the rhetoric toned down between our two boards, and so offers a deal.

I'm assuming everyone can see we've just passed what's conceivable, but I think it will be worth it to flesh it out anyway.

So this new Stormfront participant takes a "position" of some kind, with Stormfront -- I don't know what really exists in that culture but just pretend -- say he becomes a Grand Sentinel of the Stormfront Guard. He offers a deal to us, that if we will quit referring to Stormfront as a "hate site" then he'll donate 10k to the charity of our choice.

So what do we do? Wouldn't it be a horrible betrayal of principle to quit referring to a real hate site as a hate site? The only option to a severe moral lapse, is to implicitly acknowledge that such language had been mere hyperbole and potentially slanderous.

It's really psychologically fascinating some of the twists and turns this wager has taken.


This is exactly correct. My, how I've enjoyed watching them wriggle at the end of the string. It's so true: if they think that MormonDiscussions.com is the equivalent of a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist site--something that is so bad that it ought to be stomped out of existence, and cannot even be mentioned by its actual name--they why on earth would they cave for a mere $10,000? I guess their own values, their own souls, are for sale for the tune of 10 G's?

But we know that's not true. The real answer is that they have been exaggerating and ramping up the aggressive rhetoric for 40+ years. They don't think MormonDiscussions.com is akin to Nazis; they use that kind of language because it amuses them--it's a game to them. They do it because they enjoy it--it makes them feel empowered, and they really like seeing other people in pain. The funny thing is that Midgley seems to have *obeyed* Peterson's orders, which just means that Midgley is every bit the sell-out as DCP. Kiwi, though, has been unable to restrain himself.

Well, I hope that Dr. Moore keeps "thinking about it" until Jan. 31 of 2020. We all know what the answer is at this point. I, personally, am still interested in watching DCP act as if he still has a chance of collecting the $10,000.

And this is, of course, a classic:

Dr. Moore wrote:Through private emails with Dr. Peterson...


LOL! So, it would seem that Dr. Peterson feels that he's found an ally in you, Dr. Moore! I bet he's been telling you all sorts of tales concerning the mistreatment he's received at the hand of people on this board. And, I bet that he's supplied you with zero links and zero specific examples to support those tales. Still, I'm glad he's chatting with you, and trying to work out a deal whereby he and his close associates have to behave with greater decorum and decency. I mean, so long as they do that, you'll be their ally, right? And, like, agree with them that the folks here are, like, Grade-A Meanies?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

Post Reply