Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologies?

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Dr Moore
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Dr Moore »

Whew! Dean Robbers, and Doc, I was about to type a thoughtful, lengthy response, but have four lectures tonight and a red eye to catch for “donor meetings” tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. Much to think about!

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Dr Moore wrote:Whew! Dean Robbers, and Doc, I was about to type a thoughtful, lengthy response, but have four lectures tonight and a red eye to catch for “donor meetings” tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. Much to think about!

:rolleyes:

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by fetchface »

As a person who thinks that Obedience, Inc. (oops, I mean the LDS church) couldn't vanish from the earth soon enough, I don't know why we would want to discourage these guys from being petty assholes. I can't overstate how effective this type of behavior was at turning me off to the church when I was losing my faith and really digging into the questions that bothered me. This kind of vitriol screams insecurity (this is the best the church has got!?!?!). I believe that these guys are at least an order of magnitude more effective as anti-Mormons as everyone on this board.

They truly are doing Satan's work in one of the most effective ways imaginable. Let them do it.
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor Scratch »

It may be useful to review the terms that were laid out by Dr. Moore:

Shall we agree that the $10k is in your hands to distribute to worthy causes on fulfillment of the following terms?

1. No derogatory mention of Dr. Shades board, or its members, through end of Feb. 2020. By yourself, and as host of this site, by your good faith effort to moderate such comments by others here.

2. Nothing in the deal limits your range to express conviction on and debate issues of interest.

Dr. Moore


The terms were established on September 1st. So, you really would need to look at 2 1/2 weeks' worth of material from Kiwi, Midgley, et al. to know whether or not the deal has been honored. Just glancing at Stocks's thread on Midgley, it seems fairly obvious to me what the answer is--FWIW.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr Moore wrote:Whew! Dean Robbers, and Doc, I was about to type a thoughtful, lengthy response, but have four lectures tonight and a red eye to catch for “donor meetings” tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. Much to think about!


Hi Dr. Moore,

I know I don't personally require any sort of justification on your part. I just want you to be aware that references to this board have been made since your deal was enacted. Mr. Peterson moderates his blog pretty tightly, so I find it virtually impossible that he isn't aware of his friends' posting habits.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Maksutov »

Fanatics love to think they're persecuted. This board represents "persecution" to these "Mormon scholars" and so they can imagine themselves in some great cosmic battle that elevates them to the status of superheroes. :lol: :lol: :lol: Keyboard Kommandos battling the Dark Lord and his zombie hordes.

Ridiculous? No more than the rest of what passes for scholarship among hillbilly occultists in funny underwear. :lol: There is no fount of absurdity in American life to equal Mormonism. It's the Old Faithful of Stupid. :cool:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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Physics Guy
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Physics Guy »

What is "mention"? I could undertake not to make derogatory mention of Donald Trump, but then immediately after my audience has learned the details of my undertaking, begin trash talking "The Buffoon". I'm just talking about someone who happens to be a real buffoon, never mind whom. If you think the things I've said have any bearing on Trump, well then you're the one denigrating the man. Wink wink wink. Oh drat I've got something in my eye. Wink.

So they may claim that they've cleverly obeyed the letter of the agreement while thumbing their nose at its spirit. The way I see it, though, this was never an enforceable contract, and everyone knew that. If somebody's making a voluntary offer of a large donation then either you respect the spirit of their conditions or you don't count on getting the money. And what was the spirit of the conditions in this case? Nothing but common courtesy and refraining from insult, which should be no great effort for adults even without any inducement at all.

Yet even for ten thousand bucks the most they were willing—or able—to do was to substitute "the sty" for "the Shades board". They were not willing—or not able—to refrain from insult, not even for ten thousand dollars to Interpreter.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Lol. He just can’t help himself.

My reports on the plays that we attend – and I sometimes forget altogether to mention them, so there are at least a few more on which I haven’t reported – have drawn derision in some predictable quarters. Supposedly, I believe that the Church is true because I attend a lot of plays, or something like that. Maybe the argument is really that, because I see a fair amount of theater I imagine myself to be a very sophisticated fellow, and that my claimed sophistication (in my mind, at least) lends special authority to my conviction that the claims of the Restoration are true.


Hopefully Mr. Peterson’s obsession with this board doesn’t cost his charities 10 grand. :)

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Physics Guy »

My reports on the plays that we attend ... have drawn derision in some predictable quarters. Supposedly, I believe that the Church is true because I attend a lot of plays, or something like that. Maybe the argument is really that, because I see a fair amount of theater I imagine myself to be a very sophisticated fellow, and that my claimed sophistication (in my mind, at least) lends special authority to my conviction that the claims of the Restoration are true.

I wouldn't see this as a breach of the deal. It's expressed in pretty neutral language and I think it's accurate enough to count as fair comment.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

PG,

Sure. I recall watching a movie years ago where a scene that involved Catholic priests, the Nazis, and a line in the courtyard played out. The idea was that if anyone crossed this line, a painted line on the ground, they'd be shot on the spot. A Catholic priest would walk out of his quarters, walk up to the line and then toe it. He'd walk up and down the line and wave his toe right up to the line while the Nazis looked on. While I'm sure some people in some quarters might be pleased I'd use that analogy, equating ourselves with Nazis and the ever heroic mopologist as a defiant priest mocking the rule, I believe the analogous behavior stands.

- Doc

eta: One should note that sometimes tip toeing the line results in accidentally stepping over it:

Sledge to Dr. Shades • 11 hours ago

Dr. Shades hates Mormons and Mormonism with a burning, insatiable hatred. That's why he runs two hate sites.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

A link for the Sledge comment about Dr. Shades’ “hate sites,” still up.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4623325912

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Philo Sofee »

Physics Guy wrote:
My reports on the plays that we attend ... have drawn derision in some predictable quarters. Supposedly, I believe that the Church is true because I attend a lot of plays, or something like that. Maybe the argument is really that, because I see a fair amount of theater I imagine myself to be a very sophisticated fellow, and that my claimed sophistication (in my mind, at least) lends special authority to my conviction that the claims of the Restoration are true.

I wouldn't see this as a breach of the deal. It's expressed in pretty neutral language and I think it's accurate enough to count as fair comment.


Yeah that one appears decent, but in point of fact, if it isn't Peterson who wants this image for himself, it is absolutely certain that Midgley does, in very point of fact, think just this! It is precisely because they travel a bunch and go out on the town and do big boy stuff like watch Shakespeare plays and create blogs that demonstrates they are always right, which extends to what they say about the church, therefore you can take it to the credit union that Mormonism is true.
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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:PG,

Sure. I recall watching a movie years ago where a scene that involved Catholic priests, the Nazis, and a line in the courtyard played out. The idea was that if anyone crossed this line, a painted line on the ground, they'd be shot on the spot. A Catholic priest would walk out of his quarters, walk up to the line and then toe it. He'd walk up and down the line and wave his toe right up to the line while the Nazis looked on. While I'm sure some people in some quarters might be pleased I'd use that analogy, equating ourselves with Nazis and the ever heroic mopologist as a defiant priest mocking the rule, I believe the analogous behavior stands.

- Doc

eta: One should note that sometimes tip toeing the line results in accidentally stepping over it:

Sledge to Dr. Shades • 11 hours ago

Dr. Shades hates Mormons and Mormonism with a burning, insatiable hatred. That's why he runs two hate sites.

And yet again he's playing footsie with 'the line':

I note that I’m being accused by a small handful of people of blaming the Mountain Meadows Massacre on “anti-Mormons.”

It's clear he's following this board closely, and because he can't resist making reference to it all the while not wanting to lose Dr. Moore's generous offer of $10,000 to keep his trap shut Mr. Peterson opts for this kind of game playing. Sure one could say he's talking about his commenters, but we know the deal. I just wonder if his supporters will honor his agreement in the comments section...

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Dr Moore wrote:Whew! Dean Robbers, and Doc, I was about to type a thoughtful, lengthy response, but have four lectures tonight and a red eye to catch for “donor meetings” tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts. Much to think about!

Hi Dr. Moore,

I know I don't personally require any sort of justification on your part. I just want you to be aware that references to this board have been made since your deal was enacted. Mr. Peterson moderates his blog pretty tightly, so I find it virtually impossible that he isn't aware of his friends' posting habits.

- Doc

Excellent point. I doubt anyone here needs any justification. It’s a private agreement. However, it has been publicly discussed here, with multiple posts explaining how allowing warnings, multiple warnings, and extra chances is not moving the goalposts, including this warning:

The warning was that DCP, to show good faith moderation efforts, would end all such comments from those two participants.

Of course, the original agreement was not limited to only comments by DCP, kiwi and midgley, which is what in part prompted the discussion of moving the goalposts. The original agreement:

dr Moore:

Shall we agree that the $10k is in your hands to distribute to worthy causes on fulfillment of the following terms?

1. No derogatory mention of Dr. Shades board, or its members, through end of Feb. 2020. By yourself, and as host of this site, by your good faith effort to moderate such comments by others here.

There has been no response at all, however, to this:

Sledge Dr. Shades
a day ago

Dr. Shades hates Mormons and Mormonism with a burning, insatiable hatred. That's why he runs two hate sites.

Physics Guy’s comment continues to hold:

So they may claim that they've cleverly obeyed the letter of the agreement while thumbing their nose at its spirit. The way I see it, though, this was never an enforceable contract, and everyone knew that. If somebody's making a voluntary offer of a large donation then either you respect the spirit of their conditions or you don't count on getting the money. And what was the spirit of the conditions in this case? Nothing but common courtesy and refraining from insult, which should be no great effort for adults even without any inducement at all.

Yet even for ten thousand bucks the most they were willing—or able—to do was to substitute "the sty" for "the Shades board". They were not willing—or not able—to refrain from insult, not even for ten thousand dollars to Interpreter.

Or in the case of the most recent comment, “the most they were willing-or able-to do was to substitute [‘hate sites’ ] for ‘Shades’ board.’ “

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Physics Guy »

I actually think we should welcome comments like the recent one by Peterson quoted by Doctor CamNC4Me just above here. Nobody wants to stop Peterson from mentioning this board or commenting on its discussion. Nobody is trying to force him to agree with us or even to like us. I believe Dr Moore's goal is just for the rhetorical tone to be civil, instead of being full of gratuitous verbal abuse. So every time somebody on Peterson's blog posts something about this site that is civil in tone, no matter how critical in content it may be, that's a win for Dr Moore's project as I understand it.

"Sty" is not civil and neither is "hate site". Peterson himself may be able to manage civil criticism but he's evidently having trouble moderating it into some of his commenters. Some of them seem to have a hard time controlling themselves.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

“A hard time moderating” indeed. How hard is it for a moderator to eliminate words such as “sty” and “hate site”, when he has full control over all comments?
So every time somebody on Peterson's blog posts something about this site that is civil in tone, no matter how critical in content it may be, that's a win for Dr Moore's project as I understand it.

Agreed. So what message is Peterson sending about Dr Moore’s project by letting the blatant violations stand?

In the long run, however, that’s obviously DM’s concern alone. And in that vein, I would agree with Gadianton’s point that there is no reason to tie in the count and content of threads over here with DM’s agreement with DCP.

Pleas for civility notwithstanding, it really doesn’t hurt anyone here for posters at a blog such as SeN to violate DM’s agreement, given their reputations for egregiously attacking all non-lds. (Although gemli and others may wonder what is going on if attacks against them start to take up all the slack!)

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

From Peterson’s blog, the comment section:
Sledge to Dr. Shades
5 hours ago

There is very little difference between your site and Stormfront. They even almost look the same.

In any case, you do hate Mormonism. You hate it with such a burning passion that, for two decades after returning from your mission, you have dedicated your very life to defaming, slandering, and execrating it online.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4626680267

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

Also this:
Sledge to Dr. Shades
10 hours ago

That's what my wife says, too.

But hey, at least I don't run two hate sites!

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4626358426

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Physics Guy »

Does Shades have a second site? What am I missing?

Otherwise, Dr. Shades doesn't actually post here all that much. He posts regularly but not obsessively and his posts are generally short. Unless he's really fanatical over on his second site that I haven't seen yet, he seems to be dedicating much less of his life to execrating the Mormon church than numerous apologists dedicate of their lives to defending that church. It's a pretty lackadaisical execration if you ask me.

"Lackadaisical execration" might be a good name for a craft beer.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Lemmie »

The comparison to Stormfront is inappropriate, to say the least. No comments have been moderated yet, so sadly, it will probably be allowed to stay up.

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Re: Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologi

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Does Sledge fall within or outside of Dr. Moore’s ‘vector’?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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