more of gemli's gems

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Philo Sofee
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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Philo Sofee »

I was just going to mention that if sticking with something is being dogmatic, then there are no more dogmatic people on the planet as Mormon apologists who insist their religion is the true one with the only validity to use God's authority.......
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Physics Guy
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Re: more of gemli's gems

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Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:49 am
Sure, in your summary, being a dogmatic atheist is like being a dogmatic round-earther.
You have positive evidence against the existence of any kind of God that is as strong as the evidence in favor of the Earth being round?

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Re: more of gemli's gems

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Physic's Guy: "You have positive evidence against the existence of any kind of God that is as strong as the evidence in favor of the Earth being round?"

Well, I'm trying to go by what I think Gemli believes, and by how you are recasting Gemli. I might have misunderstood your position, but it seemed like you were confirming Gemli's mantra of "positive evidence". And I think looking at it that way, it's not so much evidence against God, it's evidence that what we see in the world is satisfactorily explained by science. There would be no reason to entertain another model of the earth or a God, for the same reason, that there is nothing amiss in our scientific explanations of the world.

While Gemli would probably assume that "evidence for God" is generally produced by proxy as a "gap" in scientific knowledge, Sic et Non has access to other venues, as God could visit the earth as a Flesh and Bone being and people could take pictures. Kolob could be discovered by the Hubble. And so there absolutely is a means for the Mormon God to be demonstrated to Gemli, and so, he'll go ahead and wait for the evidence. The apologists have the "Witnesses" but "the upper bound on the likelihood of any particular kind of God is a firm one" and the witnesses have not met the burden -- the burden to even take the suggestion seriously, let alone demonstrate something.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Physics Guy »

I'm just surprised at considering atheism to be as clear-cut a case as the round Earth. I mean, nobody has to argue that roundness seems sufficient to explain everything without the need for an additional postulate of flatness. Nobody tries to say that flat-Earthers have the burden of proof. On the contrary I think everyone accepts that round-Earthers are the ones with something to prove. They then prove it.

For most people it's the flatness of Earth that's the obvious default, after all. Roundness is the bizarre notion that if you walked down the street and kept going you'd eventually come down the same street again going in the same direction, getting back to where you started without ever turning around. What? No kid finds that inherently plausible; it's obviously absurd to the point of being unimaginable, and for a kid it's also suspiciously untestable because obviously no kid is going to walk twenty-five thousand miles. Plus there are oceans.

We only believe in the round Earth because we're compelled by hard evidence. I don't see how atheism is like that. From the structure of the rival theories and their arguments, in fact, I think it's theism that's more like round-Earth-ism, postulating something hard to imagine for which there is negligible evidence in daily life, offering awkward indirect arguments about rare events, and proposing that there would be decisive evidence if you had a view from a different perspective that's hard to obtain. The difference, to be sure, is that there has been no Magellan, let alone an Apollo. But the flat-versus-round-Earth issue is an example of how sometimes, at least, a weirder theory can turn it to be right.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Gadianton »

If I weren't banned from Sic et Non, I could ask Gemli if he considers atheism as obvious as a round earth. Maybe I'm wrong and he doesn't, but that seems like the "positivist" attitude to me. As for my own personal beliefs, I would consider a round earth and theism both to be the ordinary claim. I agree that in a "blank slate" scenario, that a round earth is non-intuitive. I'm not sure I agree God is not intuitive, as God is the first thing every culture that becomes a culture believes in.

Even though a round earth is an abstract idea, it's indoctrinated into us since children as a fact, along with a number of supporting facts that make it seem obvious. If the earth weren't round, we could probably be tricked as children pretty easily into believing it is round.

To be sure, the two beliefs are very different within a positivist framework. As a positivist, it's not about what idea is more intuitive, the default position for a positivist is the empty set, and then real, material things are added from there. If Gemli were a customs officer for the land of rationality, then getting either a round earth or a God over the border would be difficult for a given individual, but a "no God" isn't even a thing.

Atheists with a positivist bent, an every-day New Atheist, perhaps, might get confused in their "burden-of-proof" challenges to believers. I've seen atheists on message boards confuse "The person making the claim" with "The person positing the existence of a thing"; they mean the latter but often say the former as if the formal rules of a debate have something to do with the rules of a certain epistemology, and they probably have never heard of A. J. Ayer. Anyway, what they mean, is that a "no God" isn't a thing, and so it's impossible for them to prove, and therefore the burden automatically falls upon the one positing the thing in reality. Likewise for pixies and elves. It doesn't matter how well accepted the belief is by society, the lone non-believer sits back and awaits the evidence from those who advanced the existence of the thing.

So how are a round earth and a God connected? A round earth might be difficult to demonstrate, but it's nonetheless, well demonstrated. A God, however, is not demonstrated, and will be very difficult to demonstrate. And so the "atheist" is about equally confident that the world will remain round, and that magical creatures nor God will be demonstrated by believers.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Physics Guy »

Well, I’m also confident that the existence of God will not be demonstrated. I wouldn’t call that atheism.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

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gemli Kyler Ray Rasmussen • an hour ago

I haven't encountered creepy stalkers in this blog, but frankly I don't know what they do in their spare time. But if I thought I was receiving unfair criticism I'd ditch commenting here in a second. There's a difference between uninformed criticism and the unfair variety.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 5047738499
“Midgley, the Uninformed.” I love it! Of course, gemli hasn’t had Midgley cross half the world on a ship he hates just sidle up to gemli’s significant other, misrepresent himself in order to pump that person for any tidbits which he can use later for libelous purposes, all after involving multiple official layers of his church to illegally access their private information.

For that reason Stalker Midgley is still Stalker Midgley, but his new title is magnificent as well.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Lemmie »


Louis Midgley gemli • 7 hours ago

Bald assertions made without supporting any evidence cannot be challenged by evidence.
Is this mangled sentence the mopologetic version of the Hitchens statement?

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

(Christopher Hitchens).
As for the rest of Midgley’s statement....
Midglet > gemli

...This is why we describe the bald assertions by gemli as being merely his dogma. So gemli has finally noticed that we have solid reasons for describing his ideology as merely dogmatic.

http://disq.us/p/2bk6zui
:lol: In the third person, no less. With a friend like Midgley, what apologist needs an enemy?!

And here is the “bald assertion” from gemli (well, from Scientific American) that triggered Midglet’s contribution to our gems:
gemli

Near-death experiences, also known as still-alive experiences, don't require a trip into an invisible netherworld. The kinds of images and experiences reported in these events are consistent with disturbances in brain chemistry due to illness, oxygen starvation or medications.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-heaven/

http://disq.us/p/2bjppiq

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

You really ought to read the comments section in this latest post by Dowsin’ Dan Peterson:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

It’s absolutely delightful watching BYU professors sputter and turn into adolescents when engaging the winsome gemili.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by moksha »

Dr. Peterson as a talking Toucan

gemli Louis Midgley • 9 hours ago
The fact that I can practically recite your replies before I read them may be indicative of a certain sameness. But some people never learn.

DanielPeterson Mod gemli • 8 hours ago
The fact that I can practically recite your replies before I read them is indicative of a certain sameness. But some people never learn.

Image
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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Lemmie »

Upon being informed that he doesn’t know anything (again), gemli responds with another gem:

gemli DanielPeterson • 6 hours ago

I know that Catholics think Mormons are going to Hell. And that Baptists think other Baptists are in big trouble. In general I know that every religion thinks there's something wrong with every other religion, which is why there are so many different religions in the first place.

Or maybe it's all about a problem with the human thought process, and religion is just the rash it breaks out in.

http://disq.us/p/2bo7hkz
The rash it breaks out in. Lol.

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Lemmie »

Gemli’s on a roll:

gemli DanielPeterson 7 hours ago

You must realize that citing theists who believe in theistic beliefs is not part of the solution. The argumentum ad verecundiam is a logical fallacy, And anything with a Latin name has got to be taken seriously.

Should I cite the names of brilliant logicians, scientists, doctors, authors and public intellectuals who aren't theists? If I do so, will religions simply go away?

I prefer to keep my epistemic distance from people who make up self-serving phrases to justify their irrational beliefs. Or perhaps I have a hundred dollar bill that you can have, but as you get closer to it, it moves further away.

Theists are expert at armoring their beliefs with all sorts of rhetorical steel plate so that logic and reason can never penetrate. I wonder what actually motivates this behavior. What are they afraid of, really?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 5059390437

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

“Or perhaps I have a hundred dollar bill that you can have, but as you get closer to it, it moves further away.”

God, could that have been a delicious reference to Joseph Smith’s treasure seeking? Absolutely sublime if it was, and if it wasn’t... a happy accident!

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moksha
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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by moksha »

When you read the back and forth exchanges, it would be nice if the apologists had something more than insults and sophistry.

What is that thing about always wanting Gemli to read some book? Even if Gemli read some book on Sumerian creation stories, would that be sufficient to convert him to Mormonisn?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

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Dr Exiled
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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Dr Exiled »

moksha wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 am
When you read the back and forth exchanges, it would be nice if the apologists had something more than insults and sophistry.

What is that thing about always wanting Gemli to read some book? Even if Gemli read some book on Sumerian creation stories, would that be sufficient to convert him to Mormonisn?
It's a tactic to avoid answering the real question while messaging the faithful that there is a response and the response is amazing. Just point to some 900 pg book that no one will read or to the thousands of pages of apologetic drivel and claim the answers are there, hoping no one will call you out.

When trying to calm the Swedish members down and "rescue" them, Apostle L. Tom Perry pointed to some secret memo in his briefcase that supposedly had all the answers. But time was short and he had to go to important meetings. So, obviously, he couldn't show or at least discuss the contents of the super secret saving memo. Too bad for the Swedes as I believe a lot left.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: more of gemli's gems

Post by Lemmie »

This gem goes to Ms. Midgley, may she rest in peace:
Louis Midgley Sam LeFevre • 2 hours ago

When the Midgleys returned from their two year stay in Aotearoa, I complained that this and that fruit or whatever was better in New Zealand, or in the case of Pineapple, in Australia.

And my wife finally said "so were husbands."

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 5062613213

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