Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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Themis
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Themis »

grindael wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Not that much else makes sense, but I think Ed may be referring to the text commonly found on breathing permits, not this specific piece of papyrus. If that is correct he should be able to take other similar breathing permits and show how his cipher (?) can also result in a Book of Abraham.


He can't (how convenient) because he assigns arbitrary "values" to the characters/pictures/whatever. There would be no formula/cipher. That's why he can claim that he isn't trying to prove that the Book of Abraham came from the papyri. Yet, he says that somehow they are "linked" to "concepts" found in the Book of Abraham. So all his posturing about them not being linked is just BS.

It's just a convenient way to promote his BS without having to account for it in any of it at all. Just vague theories about how the ancients might have done so based on his crazy parallelomania.


I suspect you are right, and I was waiting to see if he would discuss it. He has no coherent theory on how this is supposed to make sense. All we have is the person who made the papyri assigned like a paragraph of text to each Egyptian hieroglyph. Now you would likely see the same hieroglyph in the papyri being repeated similar as we do with words in English, but now we have the same hieroglyph with a whole different set of text assigned to it. It makes no sense to do this, and he provides zero evidence it is happening.

Sure someone could re-purpose pictures to mean something different, but not all the text that goes with it. They would use the written language(Egyptain) they already know to tell their Abraham story, so you would have an Abraham story that Egyptology could translate from the text, with pictures they would usually translate differently, but with the text they would have to translate the pictures based on the accompanying text. They actually do this as pictures can change meaning over time, or how a different person may want to use the picture. We see text with all three facsimiles giving us the story of what is going on, although in this case it would not have been needed, but makes it perfectly clear what is going on in the facsimiles. So if this person was to re-purpose facsimile 3 into the Abraham story, they wouldn't have to change the picture, but they would need to put in the proper text above their heads to identify, which we see they don't.
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Lemmie
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Lemmie »

EdGoble wrote:That's not at all what the claim is. In the Psalms in the Hebrew Bible you have acrostics which are literary mappings of single Hebrew characters to paragraphs of text. This is akin to what is going on in the KEP, where you have mappings to characters for artistic purposes, for decorating text with characters for artistic, literal purposes. Don't be a r____. I ask you to really think about what I just said in this paragraph. If you can't get what I just said, you are truly a r____. I ask any of you who claim to be academics to think about what I just said, really carefully in contrast to Mr. r____ grinadel here that thinks he knows what I'm saying, who doesn't know the first thing about what he thinks he is criticizing. Where in this statement did I state that these characters "contained" anything, or had some "alternate" meaning to them? Don't be an idiot. The Hebrew Alphabet does not translate to the Psalms, and in like manner, the Sensen Papyrus characters do not translate to the Book of Abraham. They are used in an art-form manner in the same stinking kind of way that the Hebrew Alphabet is used in the Psalms. This is not a hard concept. But to Mr. Grinadel, it is lost on him, because he truly is a r____. Mr. Grinadel must think the Hebrew Alphabet can magically translate to the Psalms and this is what Biblical Scholars must be thinking when they suggest that there is an acrostic in the Psalms. Don't be an idiot.


EdGoble wrote:You really are stupid. It is as abstract usage of Sensen characters as the usage of the Hebrew Alphabet is abstract when used as an acrostic. You are a stupid idiot and have no stinking idea what you are criticizing. I have no problem calling you a r____. And if the rest of you can't get it, the rest of you are stupid idiots too. Listen to what I'm saying, and read it. If you can't comprehend, its because you are all true idiots. If you aren't, and you truly are academicians as you claim, then act like it and read what I just wrote here. Otherwise, I say you are all idiots. It is the most simple concept in the world to comprehend. Read it.

[my bolding added.]

Ed, I am not understanding your point here when you say the Hebrew alphabet was used in an art-form manner in the Psalms, and then in your second quote, abstractly as an acrostic.

It's my understanding that in the acrostics, the letters of the alphabet represented themselves, and had the same meaning whether they were found at the beginning, as part of the acrostic, or anywhere else in the passage. This is definitely not an abstract use, so how are you using it to explain why the SenSen characters would be used abstractly?

If your argument regarding being an "art-form" is that it is an example of iconotropy, then it should be reproducible and testable, as my understanding of iconotropy is that it defines how a culture might appropriate meanings of another culture's symbols, not a one-off, non-reproducible, single-use example which is never replicated or re-used.

Your use of the terms "art-form" and "abstract" is confusing, given your acrostic example; could you clarify your meanings?

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Yahoo Bot »

EdGoble wrote:You were a brilliant defender of truth once upon a time. You are a dismal critic.

As I have said before, he is not critical of the sources he finds favorable. I used to do that as a college freshman.

The Facsimile business is really beyond me, and I admit it is problematic, but the Book of Abraham looks like legit inspired pseudepigrapha at the least and new God-breathed scripture at the most. But I admit that requires a certain amount of faith, just like it takes faith the accept the Four Gospels even though there's lots of doubt engendered by the lack of contemporary references to Jesus Christ.

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Yahoo Bot wrote:inspired pseudepigrapha


God-breathed pseudepigrapha.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Here are two specific translations given directly by Joseph Smith (the pretended translator) as published in the Times & Seasons. You will note that both claims are totally fictitious. Although Joseph Smith claimed to translate by the gift and power of God we can be sure that his inspiration was false as was the influence of the holy ghost which was nothing more than a bad spirit of dilution and lies. Both Joseph Smith and his holy ghost are the spirit of a lie.

1. Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O the earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]

2. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.

Bottom line:

Fear not Joseph Smith or his holy ghost. They are liars. I rebuke the testimony of Joseph Smith and his lying spirit. No modern man has done more harm to the memory of the ancient Egyptians than Joseph Smith. The man is guilty of a crime against a race of people and slandering those things that were sacred to them. Joseph Smith had a heart and mind of slander. He was evil. I know it. And I rebuke him in the name of modern Egyptology!

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Themis »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:inspired pseudepigrapha


God-breathed pseudepigrapha.

- Doc


I prefer a good God. Inspired? :rolleyes:
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grindael
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by grindael »

but the Book of Abraham looks like legit inspired pseudepigrapha at the least and new God-breathed scripture at the most.


How so, when Smith himself stated that the papyri were written by the hand of Abraham. You have to reject Smith's assertions, witnessed by many, to get your conclusion that it is pseudepigrapha. We know it is, (inspired is in the eye of the beholder) but that is NOT what Smith said it was. That is the big problem here and the ONLY thing that matters. Smith lied.
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Chap
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Chap »

grindael wrote:Smith himself stated that the papyri were written by the hand of Abraham. ... Smith lied.


(Chuckles condescendingly).

Like all anti-Mormons, you are so out of date and literal-minded! So very Bible-belt.

'Smith', 'written', 'hand', Abraham', 'lied' - even 'himself' - are all deeply polysemic and paradigm contextual expressions. And anyhow they all meant different things in early 19th century frontier America. And as for the parallels in early photo-Elamic? Don't get me started on that!

Anyhow, isn't it time for you to get to your snake-handling session with the other evangelical rednecks?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

grindael wrote:How so, when Smith himself stated that the papyri were written by the hand of Abraham. You have to reject Smith's assertions, witnessed by many, to get your conclusion that it is pseudepigrapha. We know it is, (inspired is in the eye of the beholder) but that is NOT what Smith said it was. That is the big problem here and the ONLY thing that matters. Smith lied.


Bingo!

It all comes down to whether Joseph Smith was telling the truth or not and whether the inspiration of the imaginary holy ghost working his mojo upon Joseph and his followers was based on truth or fantasy. It has been positively shown (by the evidence and testimony) that Joseph Smith was deceiving his people and the Mormons feigned claim to things that were false even though their imaginary friend (holy ghost) was telling them it was true.

Joseph Smith was like Paul H. Dunn – lying to his flock and the flock believed the lies and did so under the inspiration of their imaginary friend, the holy ghost.

That is the bottom line, my friends. All this apologetic nonsense produced by Gobble and others is nothing but smoke and mirrors in a pond of red fish. It means nothing. It's their only way to continue to deny the truth and hold on to their vested testimonies in which they have put so much stock. It's all about what if this or what if that? Could be this or could be that!

Mormon apologetics is nothing but rabbit holes wherein the faithful wonder about in the dark hoping and groping for things that could never be. They deny reality and in their fear, refuse to face the truth. It is so sad.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

grindael wrote:No, they are not. As Eric Gill has so perfectly stated: ‘Letters are things, not pictures of things’ You are simply a confused buffoon, who wants them to be what YOU want them to be.


They are pictures of things. Their usage makes them representations of acrophonics in the case of an alphabet. It doesn't change their nature. The Proto-Sinaitic Alphabet, the oldest alphabet was the same. Little pictures. Idiot. Yet, representations of sounds, because of the acrophonic principle. Idiot.


grindael wrote:No they are not "versions", they are representations of ideas.


Of course they are representations of ideas. Because they were re-used to represent things associated with the pictures of the things that they were used to represent. And when they were used to represent sounds in Egyptian, they were used as puns, idiot. And when they were re-used in the alphabet, they were re-used as acrophonics. It doesn't stop them from being pictures.

grindael wrote:The result is always the same. It is MADE to be understood. In your invented fantasy, you come up with an arbitrary text that no one but you can fathom. You can't show ONE example of when this was ever done before, how it was done, or who invented it. You are just a loon who doesn't understand language development, or anything related to it.


Actually its not. Nobody made anything up. Somebody used these things to map to text. And it is ancient.

You are entirely taking what I said out of context, and you don't genuinely want to understand any point I make, and you just want to make light of everything I have produced, and take my name in vain. While hieratics are a parallel development as cursive versions of Egyptian, and not always diretly derived from hieroglyphics, each and every hieratic does indeed map to a hieroglyphic.
Last edited by EdGoble on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:22 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Lemmie wrote:Ed, I am not understanding your point here when you say the Hebrew alphabet was used in an art-form manner in the Psalms, and then in your second quote, abstractly as an acrostic.

It's my understanding that in the acrostics, the letters of the alphabet represented themselves, and had the same meaning whether they were found at the beginning, as part of the acrostic, or anywhere else in the passage. This is definitely not an abstract use, so how are you using it to explain why the SenSen characters would be used abstractly?

If your argument regarding being an "art-form" is that it is an example of iconotropy, then it should be reproducible and testable, as my understanding of iconotropy is that it defines how a culture might appropriate meanings of another culture's symbols, not a one-off, non-reproducible, single-use example which is never replicated or re-used.

Your use of the terms "art-form" and "abstract" is confusing, given your acrostic example; could you clarify your meanings?


When something is used art, it is abstract, in that it is not literally what it usually is.
The iconotropy in what Joseph Smith produced is reproducible, for example, where he consistently used Osiris, over and over again, as a symbol for Abraham.
Last edited by EdGoble on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Themis wrote:I suspect you are right, and I was waiting to see if he would discuss it. He has no coherent theory on how this is supposed to make sense. All we have is the person who made the papyri assigned like a paragraph of text to each Egyptian hieroglyph. Now you would likely see the same hieroglyph in the papyri being repeated similar as we do with words in English, but now we have the same hieroglyph with a whole different set of text assigned to it. It makes no sense to do this, and he provides zero evidence it is happening.

Sure someone could re-purpose pictures to mean something different, but not all the text that goes with it. They would use the written language(Egyptain) they already know to tell their Abraham story, so you would have an Abraham story that Egyptology could translate from the text, with pictures they would usually translate differently, but with the text they would have to translate the pictures based on the accompanying text. They actually do this as pictures can change meaning over time, or how a different person may want to use the picture. We see text with all three facsimiles giving us the story of what is going on, although in this case it would not have been needed, but makes it perfectly clear what is going on in the facsimiles. So if this person was to re-purpose facsimile 3 into the Abraham story, they wouldn't have to change the picture, but they would need to put in the proper text above their heads to identify, which we see they don't.


They didn't have to, because they were repurposing all of the symbols in the document, including little pictures above the hand, etc.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Themis wrote:The author of the sensen papyrus would have buried it shortly after written, so there is no one else to re-purpose it's meaning.


This is another caricature of my claim, as are all of your strawmen trying to misrepresent my claims.
There is a whole class of documents called Sensen, any one of them, not just this one, could be used in this fashion.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Themis wrote:Not that much else makes sense, but I think Ed may be referring to the text commonly found on breathing permits, not this specific piece of papyrus. If that is correct he should be able to take other similar breathing permits and show how his cipher (?) can also result in a Book of Abraham.

He can't (how convenient) because he assigns arbitrary "values" to the characters/pictures/whatever. There would be no formula/cipher. That's why he can claim that he isn't trying to prove that the Book of Abraham came from the papyri. Yet, he says that somehow they are "linked" to "concepts" found in the Book of Abraham. So all his posturing about them not being linked is just BS.


If you actually attempted to look at my research on the blog and actually try to refute the actual work there, then you would be making your case. All you have here are just words, not actual attempts to rebut where I'm actually showing what I claim is happening.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by DrW »

EdGoble wrote:
Actually its not, r____. Nobody made anything up. Somebody used these things to map to text, idiot. And it is ancient.

While hieratics are a parallel development as cursive versions of Egyptian, and not always derived from hieroglyphics, each and every hieratic does indeed map to a hieroglyphic. Idiot.

EdGoble,

The only r____ idiot I see on this thread is an individual who believes that a largely plagiarized, and otherwise very poorly done pseudepigraphical (to be extremely kind) work of ridiculous fiction, produced by a well proven serially adulterous sexual predator and conman, is a suitable basis for one's entire worldview.

And that someone would be you. You clearly have no clue as to how childish, naïve, and willfully ignorant you appear to rational adults.

You should really get a life.
Last edited by DrW on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Yahoo Bot wrote:As I have said before, he is not critical of the sources he finds favorable. I used to do that as a college freshman.


I am critical of all kinds of apologetic materials. All you have to do is read the blog, and you would know that.
Last edited by EdGoble on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

DrW wrote:
EdGoble wrote:
Actually its not, r*****. Nobody made anything up. Somebody used these things to map to text, idiot. And it is ancient.

While hieratics are a parallel development as cursive versions of Egyptian, and not always derived from hieroglyphics, each and every hieratic does indeed map to a hieroglyphic. Idiot.

EdGoble,

The only r******* idiot I see on this thread is an individual who believes that a largely plagiarized, and otherwise very poorly done pseudepigraphical (to be extremely kind) work of ridiculous fiction, produced by a well proven serially adulterous sexual predator and conman, is a suitable basis for one's entire worldview.

And that someone would be you. You clearly have no clue as to how childish, naïve, and willfully ignorant you appear to rational adults.

You should really get a life.


Oh, ok. Here we go again. Another person that thinks that only the critics are rational and can't give other rational individuals enough credit that they are serious thinkers like the rest of humanity trying to seriously get down to the bottom of what is going on. You can either get serious about this conversation with someone else that is serious, or you can butt out. The same goes with the rest of you. You can either get serious here, and stop your stupidity, or you can butt out.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by sock puppet »

DrW wrote:
EdGoble wrote:
Actually its not, r*****. Nobody made anything up. Somebody used these things to map to text, idiot. And it is ancient.

While hieratics are a parallel development as cursive versions of Egyptian, and not always derived from hieroglyphics, each and every hieratic does indeed map to a hieroglyphic. Idiot.

EdGoble,

The only r******* idiot I see on this thread is an individual who believes that a largely plagiarized, and otherwise very poorly done pseudepigraphical (to be extremely kind) work of ridiculous fiction, produced by a well proven serially adulterous sexual predator and conman, is a suitable basis for one's entire worldview.

And that someone would be you. You clearly have no clue as to how childish, naïve, and willfully ignorant you appear to rational adults.

You should really get a life.


EdGoble wrote:Oh, ok. Here we go again. Another person that thinks that only the critics are rational and can't give other rational individuals enough credit that they are serious thinkers like the rest of humanity trying to seriously get down to the bottom of what is going on. You can either get serious about this conversation with someone else that is serious, or you can butt out. The same goes with the rest of you. You can either get serious here, and stop your stupidity, or you can butt out.

Eddy, is that a disinvite? Universal Rule #1 here is: "Everyone is welcome. Every opinion is welcome. Therefore, do not 'de-invite' anyone or suggest that they go elsewhere. Please do not do this via e-mail or private message, either."

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

sock puppet wrote:Eddy


You are not welcome to use my nickname. That is reserved only for close family members and friends. None of you have demonstrated your lack of animosity or true desire to be friendly.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Lemmie »

EdGoble wrote:When something is art, it is abstract, in that it is not literally what it usually is.

I don't think you read my post then, because your statement does not address the issue I brought up about what you said:
you say the Hebrew alphabet was used in an art-form manner in the Psalms, and then in your second quote, abstractly as an acrostic.

It's my understanding that in the acrostics, the letters of the alphabet represented themselves, and had the same meaning whether they were found at the beginning, as part of the acrostic, or anywhere else in the passage. This is definitely not an abstract use, so how are you using it to explain why the SenSen characters would be used abstractly?

Using the Hebrew alphabet to represent the Hebrew alphabet is not abstract, so how are you using acrostics as an example of how Sensen characters are used?

EdGoble wrote:The iconotropy in what Joseph Smith produced is reproducible, for example, where he consistently used Osiris, over and over again, as a symbol for Abraham.

Again, I don't think you read my post, as you are assuming reproducible refers to a single user, when I clearly stated otherwise:
If your argument regarding being an "art-form" is that it is an example of iconotropy, then it should be reproducible and testable, as my understanding of iconotropy is that it defines how a culture might appropriate meanings of another culture's symbols, not a one-off, non-reproducible, single-use example which is never replicated or re-used.

Are you arguing that Joseph Smith himself, as an example of iconotropy, assigned different meanings to symbols? If he is the only one who ever did that, based on his particular usage, how is that different from just making stuff up?

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by EdGoble »

Fence Sitter wrote:Not that much else makes sense, but I think Ed may be referring to the text commonly found on breathing permits, not this specific piece of papyrus. If that is correct he should be able to take other similar breathing permits and show how his cipher (?) can also result in a Book of Abraham.


If you would pay attention to the fact that I said that these documents do not contain such things, but the art on them (including the "text") was re-used as art to decorate other documents with other content, then you would know that I cannot reproduce content that I do not have.

I didn't say that the characters used as art can be used in some mechanical method to extract the book of Abraham. I said they were re-used as art, and that they were paired up with things in a clever way. Is that a difficult concept? I don't think it is.

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