Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
EdGoble wrote:
They didn't have to, because they were repurposing all of the symbols in the document, including little pictures above the hand, etc.


Not according to the testimonies of Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt (and others). They were direct translations from Egyptian to English -- revealing the actual language on the papyrus itself. All testimony and statements attest that Joseph Smith was literally translating the Egyptian language into English and that the actual Book of Abraham was upon the papyrus. Moreover, the Explanations of the Facsimiles were literal translations -- true and correct -- Egyptian into English.

Joseph Smith HC 2:348-350 wrote:

"From New York he [Mr. Chandler] took his collection on to Philadelphia and obtained the certificate of the learned and from thence came on too Kirtland, as before related in July. Thus I have given a brief history of the manner in which the writings of the Fathers, Abraham, and Joseph have been preserved and how I came into possession of the same – a CORRECT TRANSLATION of which I shall give in its proper place"


Orson Pratt 43 years later, accounts for the papyrus wrote:

"Mr. Chandler had also obtained from learned men the best TRANSLATION HE could've SOME FEW CHARACTERS which however, was not a translation, but more in the shape of ideas with regard to it, their acquaintance with the language not being sufficient to ENABLE THEM TO TRANSLATE IT LITERALLY. After some conversation with the Prophet Joseph, Mr. Chandler presented to him the ancient characters, asking him if he could TRANSLATE THEM.

The prophet took them and repaired to his room and inquired of the Lord concerning them. The Lord told him they were sacred records, containing the inspired writings of Abraham when he was in Egypt, and also those of Joseph, while he was in Egypt; and they had been deposited with these mummies, which had been exhumed. And he also inquired of the Lord concerning some few characters which Mr. Chandler, gave him by way of a test, to see if he could translate them. The prophet Joseph TRANSLATED THESE CHARACTERS and returned them, with the translation to Mr. Chandler; and who, in comparing it with the translation of the same few characters by learned men, that he had before obtained, found the two to agree."


Etc.


I would like very, very, very, very much that exact reference to that Orson Pratt quote I need that for my book thank you.
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Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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Philo Sofee wrote:
I would like very, very, very, very much that exact reference to that Orson Pratt quote I need that for my book thank you.


John Dehlin 20:64-65

http://scriptures.BYU.edu/jod/jodhtml.php?vol=20&disc=09

http://jod.mrm.org/20/62

Themis
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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spotlight wrote:When one accepts the truth claims of the LDS church they accept that the way to truth is through the Holy Ghost that leads to all truth and by which all truth can be known. Either this is correct or it isn't correct. There are no shades of grey in this foundational principle.


Oh there's lots of shades of grey in there. At least in the area of what is the holy Ghost, how does it communicate, how would one know it is communicating, and what is it communicating. The church doesn't give very good answers to this, other then if it agrees with the church, then you can believe it is from the holy Ghost, but if it disagrees with the church, you know it is not from the Holy Ghost. Is that clear thinking from the church? :redface:

So while something that is not a threat to their beliefs might appear to be something about which they think clearly the reasoning behind why they are comfortable with it is entirely different from someone else who accepts the same without this foundation implanted by the religion.


The reasoning is the same. I have said many times, on any issue where things like religion, politics, ideology have no position, you find almost universal agreement. They are the things that influence us not to think as clearly as we would without them.

When someone confronts scientific facts that are not in agreement with their churches truth claims they go into apologetic mode and either alter what the church really teaches or actually taught without realizing that they have steadied the ark which is what we see at sites like FAIR or they imagine that somehow the science is wrong, it will change when more is discovered or there are other valid interpretations, etc.


Yes a members of the church, like most religious groups, will take many different positions from rejecting all of the facts to accepting them all and changing their view. My parents still believe in a young earth and global flood, but I gave that one up as a teenager and accepted the earth as billions of years old and no global flood while still believing the church was true. Much later I came across facts about the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc and I was able to accept them as well.

We also see that while LDS abhor mixing the philosophies of men with religion they are more than happy to mingle them with science to the degree necessary not to address the implications of scientific facts or knowledge.


Most members, including leaders, do.

So by not thinking clearly I mean simply the mistake of starting with the conclusion and bending evidence to fit with that conclusion rather than starting with the evidence and fitting the most reasonable conclusion to the evidence without protecting any sacred cows with special pleading. Also by thinking clearly I refer to freedom from the need to apply a particular interpretation at all. No interpretations are a threat if we are thinking clearly as we are willing to go wherever the evidence leads us.


In so many issues, you, me, and everyone else comes into it with the conclusion in hand. If you were a believing member you came into the Book of Abraham issues with a conclusion in hand. The difference is not all members are as influenced to not think clearly about facts they are seeing. Even agnostics and atheist have many areas they come with the conclusion in hand, although probably much less then theist's. There are many factors that make people think less clearly, but they don't affect everyone equally. In many cases people initially reject the facts, but over time come to accept they are correct. How many former believers do you know that practiced apologia for years before finally recognizing they were wrong? Every apologist you engage with could be on that road.
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Philo Sofee
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Philo Sofee »

Thank you Shulem!
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spotlight
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by spotlight »

Hi Themis,

No disagreement on shades of grey existing when trying to interpret communication from a purported holy ghost. I am only referring to acceptance of the concept that truth comes from such a purported source in the first place. If someone accepts that concept then they are not thinking clearly in that they are ever after in the habit of putting the conclusion ahead of evidence and facts. The conclusion drives the interpretation of facts and evidence rather than the other way around. They become stuck in a box while the means of escape lies without.

Either there exists such a thing as a HG or it does not exist. That is a binary not subject to shades of grey though even if a HG existed in the real world shades of grey would still exist in trying to interpret whether a communication is coming from that source and what it means, sure.

There is a difference to coming into a subject with a conclusion in hand and having a determination to stick to a conclusion despite evidence that calls that conclusion into possible question. Naturally we all have a model of the world in our minds by which we function or we could not function. That model gets modified as we learn new things on the path of our lives. If that were not the case I'd still be a member and apologists would never turn against the church as happens. In that sense they are thinking. But they are not thinking clearly yet. Think of clear here the way scientologists do, a condition of having the cobwebs removed 100% from our minds. A person could think correctly about science while being a member through the use of compartmentalization for example. But the fact that they employ that tactic means they are not thinking clearly per my definition or what I mean to say. If we are thinking clearly we have nothing to defend, there are no threats because we are willing to go where the evidence leads us. I am willing to accept the existence of a god if there were one. Show me the evidence.

So thinking clearly returns us to the state that missionaries supposedly want people to arrive at as necessary to accept the gospel. To be open minded enough to consider the possibility and to be willing to accept it. That very state of clear thinking then immediately becomes lost and buried if they become converted as a load of rubbish is then piled on to the poor unfortunate who thinks they have gained a testimony. "Well if this book is true then Joseph Smith is a prophet. You must commit to the following as a result" etc. And the freedom to search and arrive at conclusions based upon what you learn and discover becomes lost and replaced with the dictum to support and defend a position regardless of evidence to the contrary for the remainder of your life. It's a test. Wait until you die if necessary to learn the resolution to any apparent conflicts. Doubt your doubts, In other words say goodbye to sanity.

spotlight - We also see that while LDS abhor mixing the philosophies of men with religion they are more than happy to mingle them with science to the degree necessary not to address the implications of scientific facts or knowledge.


Themis - Most members, including leaders, do.

Ok, we all depend upon a philosophical base, sure, but we don't all employ philosophy with an ulterior motive/agenda to support a particular viewpoint.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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spotlight wrote:Hi Themis,

No disagreement on shades of grey existing when trying to interpret communication from a purported holy ghost. I am only referring to acceptance of the concept that truth comes from such a purported source in the first place. If someone accepts that concept then they are not thinking clearly in that they are ever after in the habit of putting the conclusion ahead of evidence and facts. The conclusion drives the interpretation of facts and evidence rather than the other way around. They become stuck in a box while the means of escape lies without.

Either there exists such a thing as a HG or it does not exist. That is a binary not subject to shades of grey though even if a HG existed in the real world shades of grey would still exist in trying to interpret whether a communication is coming from that source and what it means, sure.


Most members believe the HG can teach them the truth of all things, but I suspect most are not very confident about it. I do think one must question this idea a little in order to think clearly with facts against the church's truth claims. I don't know that all members who reject these facts do so because they firmly believe the HG has told them the church is true. There are other factors at play like your family is all in the church so your mind may try to protect you from negative consequences of accepting the church is not true. Rejecting climate change can be similar in that their tribe would see them in a more negative way if they were to say they believe the science of climatology. I would suggest these kind of factors play the biggest role influencing our thinking.

So thinking clearly returns us to the state that missionaries supposedly want people to arrive at as necessary to accept the gospel. To be open minded enough to consider the possibility and to be willing to accept it.


I do think this is important to be open minded about being wrong. It is something that can take a long time to get to that point for many, and you never know whether the staunch apologist you are conversing with is on that road or not.
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by spotlight »

Good point about family. I like to think that I would have left the church either way but I don't have family in the church so I can't really say. But I would at least be living a double life had I remained an active member. You can't unlearn things once they are learned. I owe the initial crack in the dam to a close friend, almost family, that challenged a truth claim of the church and started me thinking about it for the first time in my life up until that point. Now I read material that I accepted as taboo anti material as a member and realize I should have been reading the critics' material all along.

Point taken about apologists and which way they are/might be moving. :redface:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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Verses from the actual Book of Abraham are seldom quoted in General Conference by church leaders. There really are only a couple points therein and verses that ever get mentioned. But the Facsimiles themselves NEVER EVER get mentioned in General Conference! To my knowledge, never at any time in church history has a General Authority ever bore testimony to the truthfulness of the Explanations of the Facsimiles. The Book of Abraham was canonized by an ignorant First Presidency in 1880 and that's the end of the story.

The 8th Article of Faith declares in most solemn terms that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Therefore, we may assume that Mormons in 1880 and even today would give the Book of Abraham the same status. But do they? Can anyone imagine a General Authority of the church getting up in General Conference and declaring: We believe the Explanations of the Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham are the word of God?

:lol:

Come on. Think about it. "We believe the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are the word of God."

The church today has thrown the Book of Abraham under the bus and has little regard for the Facsimiles and what they say. The church today doesn't believe them. There is no testimony on record to that effect. So why does the church continue to print them?

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Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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I never have and I never will, ever, ever, bear testimony to the truthfulness of the Explanations of the Book of Abraham Facsimiles. Simply put, I don't believe them and neither should you.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

No, I'm not going to comment on the Explanations of the Book of Abraham Facsimiles. Why? Well, because I don't think they're relevant, uh, uhh, I don't think it adds to the discussion at hand.

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

White is white and black is black. If you're white and delightsome then you're blessed but if you're black and loathsome then you're cursed. That's Mormon doctrine.
Times and Seasons. City of Nauvoo, Ill. June 15th, 1841. wrote:
This is the case also with Egyptian figures, the Egyptians always represented their own nation as red, Europeans as white, and Africans as black. Their Divinities were all represented of a red color.
I guess that's why poor Anubis in Facsimile No. 3 is a slave?

Seems so.

:rolleyes:

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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by aussieguy55 »

Our friend Tamis provided me with a couple of examples of ones similar to Facsimile 3
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hy4 ... OJ5qM/edit
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Bravo, aussieguy55!

I need to include that link on my other thread.

Poor pitiful John Gee has some explaining to do. I want to twist Gee's arms until he begs for mercy. And I want to drill Muhlestein a new one!

Muhlestein is Gee's little lapdog.

:lol:

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