Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
Lemmie
God
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Lemmie »

EdGoble wrote: ...we shall see if you have substantial critiques of it then,... But as it stands now, nobody has judged it on its own terms....

Not true, Mr. Goble. You have had significant input, in this thread alone.

Your argument about being the lone expert doesn't ring true; it should be a very simple thing for an expert to answer the questions of those new to a topic. Your refusal to respond to questions is not an expert response.

User avatar
Xenophon
God
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Xenophon »

Lemmie wrote:
EdGoble wrote: ...we shall see if you have substantial critiques of it then,... But as it stands now, nobody has judged it on its own terms....

Not true, Mr. Goble. You have had significant input, in this thread alone.

Your argument about being the lone expert doesn't ring true; it should be a very simple thing for an expert to answer the questions of those new to a topic. Your refusal to respond to questions is not an expert response.

And along this thinking: has he convinced even one fellow academic on this? To give this line of thinking more than a dismissal (the members of this board have certainly tried but remain unimpressed)? If the answer to "I need some examples and proof of how this would work and manifest itself elsewhere" is "you haven't studied enough", I guess you can never be wrong.

This is no different to the LDS idea that if you read and prayed about the Book of Mormon but received no testimony(or worse, a disaffirmation), then you must have done it wrong/not been of contrite spirit/not been humble enough.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 21629
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Is there a way someone can ELI5 what is happening for Ed? I don't think he's wrapping his head around the discussion very well.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Bingo!

It all comes down to whether Joseph Smith was telling the truth or not and whether the inspiration of the imaginary holy ghost working his mojo upon Joseph and his followers was based on truth or fantasy. It has been positively shown (by the evidence and testimony) that Joseph Smith was deceiving his people and the Mormons feigned claim to things that were false even though their imaginary friend (holy ghost) was telling them it was true.

Joseph Smith was like Paul H. Dunn – lying to his flock and the flock believed the lies and did so under the inspiration of their imaginary friend, the holy ghost.

That is the bottom line, my friends. All this apologetic nonsense produced by Gobble and others is nothing but smoke and mirrors in a pond of red fish. It means nothing. It's their only way to continue to deny the truth and hold on to their vested testimonies in which they have put so much stock. It's all about what if this or what if that? Could be this or could be that!

Mormon apologetics is nothing but rabbit holes wherein the faithful wonder about in the dark hoping and groping for things that could never be. They deny reality and in their fear, refuse to face the truth. It is so sad.


Yes, I totally agree with myself. The bottom line is Joseph Smith was pretending to translate Egyptian to English and all of this under the direction of the so-called holy ghost. The Mormons believed all this nonsense while the holy ghost testified to them that these translations were true and correct. The Mormons believed that Joseph translated Egyptian from the gold plates just as he did from the papyrus. They believed that the writing was actual writings had by father Abraham written in the ancient Egyptian language and that Joseph Smith used his gift as a translator to convert standard Egyptian into standard English.

The apologetic nonsense of today's apologists is total bunk. It is simply apostate Mormonism. Joseph Smith himself would have rebuked them and cast them from the church unless they submit to his testimony.

Themis
God
Posts: 13345
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Themis »

EdGoble wrote:Actually, it doesn't. It supports the idea that he is claiming to "translate an alphabet" "as practiced by the ancients." There is nothing to suggest that he had any concept here other than reproducing what the ancients were doing with a certain "alphabet." There is no claim that this "alphabet" contained the text of the Book of abraham, at all. The only claim was that it was an "alphabet" like any other "alphabet."


Almost no one interprets it this way. The KEP was a failed attempt to understand Egyptian language so they could translate any Egyptian document. It's not really coherent, and no one could make it work.

In other words, the indication here is that we ought to be finding what the context is here, to the ancients, about the types of things they used alphabets for, and to see if any of that matches with what is internally found in the KEP. This has nothing to do with finding the source of the text of the Book of Abraham and magically reproducing some way to extract that text from what is before us. The source of that text was lost to antiquity, and nothing short of pure revelation brought it forward to the modern day.


Feel free to show how it works. So far we see no evidence of anything you are suggesting.

Therefore, my hypothesis has nothing to do with some mechanical method of translating, but rather, identifying what is going on here with the evidence that is internally available in that text, coupled with identifying anciently what people thought of and how they used alphabets and seeing if there is a match here.


You provide nothing from the ancient world that shows any re-purposing you interpret from the KEP. It makes zero sense. Why make an incoherent second meaning from the papyri, when they could just write it down. It's like trying to make a new language to tell a story. And one that can only work with one document. Change that document and you then have no coherent story. Just like if I took a short story and added a paragraph of story text to each word, and then tried to apply it to a different short story. It makes zero sense. I have no problem taking Egyptian pictures and changing their meaning, but you wouldn't do that with the text. You use it to tell your story that also explains how the pictures, usually having a different meaning, what they mean now. Fac 3 is a good example. Mostly pictures with some text at the bottom and by each figure. It explains the scene and who each person is. You don't re-purpose the text to mean something else. You write the Egyptian text to explain what the picture now means. You use text to describe each figure and that they are now different participants in a different scene. You also don't make this papyri up and bury it with your dead relative that is not meant to be seen again by living humans. Reality is Joseph was making it up as he did from the start as a treasure hunter, but that cannot be the faithful view.
42

User avatar
grindael
Dragon
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by grindael »

Fact: Joseph Smith had sex with multiple females to whom he as not married.

Females to whom he was not CIVILLY married. There was always a marriage.

Except that time with Fanny Alger, with whom he was caught in the barn doing the nasty by his only legal wife, Emma. So, he was an adulterer.

Fact: Several of these females were minors, some of them only 14 or 15 years old.

"Minor" is a modern convention. No laws were broken. No societal taboos existed. And no proof of sexuality in those relationships has been confirmed.


Where to even start with this tripe. First, Joseph broke his OWN LAW, written in 1842, a First Presidency Directive which stated:

Behold this is a wicked generation, full of lyings, and deceit, and craftiness; and the children of the wicked are wiser than the children of light; that is, they are more crafty; and it seems that it has been the case in all ages of the world. And the man who leaves his wife and travels to a foreign nation, has his mind overpowered with darkness, and Satan deceives him and flatters him with the graces of the harlot, and before he is aware he is disgraced forever: and greater is the danger for the woman that leaves her husband, and there are several instances where women have left their husbands, and [pg. 2] come to this place,& in a few weeks, or months, they have found themselves new husbands, and they are living in adultery; and we are obliged to cut them off from the church. I presume There are men also that are quilty of the same crime, as we are credibly informed. We are KNOWING to their having taken wives HERE and are CREDIBLY informed that they have wives in England. ...

And we also forbid that a woman leave her husband because he is an unbeliever. We also forbid that a man shall leave his wife because she is an unbeliever. If he be a bad man (i. e. the unbeliever) there is a law to remedy that evil. And if she be a bad woman, there is law to remedy that evil. And if the law will divorce them, then they are at liberty; [p. 3] otherwise they are bound as long as they two shall live, and it is not our prerogative to go beyond this; if we do it, it will be at the expense of our reputation.

These things we have written in plainness, and we desire that they should be publicly known, and request this to be published in the Millennial Star. First Presidency Address, June 12, 1842, Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Later published in the Millennial Star with some of it redacted.


This Address is very specific about what it directs. At this time, Joseph had married almost a dozen women, the majority of them already had husbands. He was having sex with them, (Sylvia Lyon is a good example) and so by his own LAW, he was committing adultery. Every woman he married until he received his July 1843 "revelation" was also by his OWN LAW, adultery.

And, did Joseph stand behind those so called "marriages"? No. When Emma objected to the Partridge sisters, Joseph shook their hands and told them to get lost. He never spoke to them again. This after he spent almost a year having sex with them. So were they real marriages? Not in my book. They were nest hiding of the worst sort.

His "revelation" from July 1843 was never put to the church for a vote, so it also was being used to break the binding church law (the article on Marriage in the D&C). Smith and his "apostles" went to great lengths to quote that binding law and deny their spiritual wifeism. They constantly deceived the majority of the church. It was illegal to practice polygamy in Illinois. So whether or not Joseph "married" young women and that was culturally acceptable, it was STILL ILLEGAL when HE did it. Fanny Alger was straight up adultery, as testified to by Oliver Cowdery. There was no marriage. I would love for ANYONE to debate me on ANY of this. You will lose.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

User avatar
grindael
Dragon
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by grindael »

EdGoble wrote:
You are entirely taking what I said out of context, and you don't genuinely want to understand any point I make, and you just want to make light of everything I have produced, and take my name in vain.


No I'm not, I've quoted you EXTENSIVELY, and most of it, you've totally ignored. I totally understand what you are saying and I explained it well above. This is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING:

It like leaving a copy of "Mary had a Little Lamb" in a grave, which someone digs up a thousand years later, and then a buffoon comes along and says it isn't really about Mary and a lamb with fleece as white as snow, it is about a ninja penguiin in a snowstorm in Antarctica. That is the stupid ____ you are peddling. It is beyond juvenile. White fleece is really snow! White fleece is really snow! White fleece is really snow! Mary is a ninja penguin! Why, because a moron came along and "assigned abstract values" to it. That's why. :rolleyes:
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

User avatar
Choyo Chagas
Holy Ghost
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:49 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Choyo Chagas »

EdGoble wrote:...
because my beliefs and commitments have no reflection on my ability to think
...

he he
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Switching gears for just a moment, let us look at the statement Joseph Smith made about a particular line (Explanation 8) of Egyptian text in the Facsimile No. 2 and determine if Joseph Smith might be on to something:

Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.


Folks, Joseph Smith was not on to anything. He didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't translate Egyptian text as he claimed he could. The pretended translator teased the world and challenged them to come up with what the dead language was saying. And guess what? The world did learn how to translate and determined that the text was not had in the Holy Temple of the Mormon God. Rather it is funerary literature had by the religion of the ancient Egyptians. It has nothing to do with Abraham and the Masonic temple rites stolen by the Mormons.

Folks, Joseph Smith was a common thief, an abuser of women, and an outright conman. I know this with every fiber of my being and so testify. Joseph Smith was a conman.

Amen

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Folks, the conman (Joseph Smith) dared the world to translate text in Facsimile No. 2 with Explanation 11:

Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen.


What ever Joseph meant by Egyptian numbers in figure 11 is anyone's guess but the world did find out the true meaning of the Egyptian text within the register and in the whole of the Hypocephalus. And it has nothing to do with Abraham, Jesus Christ, or the Masonic rites which the Mormons stole.

Yes, the world figured out what the text says but Joseph Smith could not. The pretended translator baited the world and in his smug pride he thought he could pull a fast one.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Joseph Smith published his Book of Abraham and Facsimile No. 3 in the Times & Seasons and offered it to the world as the actual writings of Abraham written down in the form of Egyptian texts. Joseph Smith claimed to have taken this EGYPTIAN text and translate it into ENGLISH:

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


Joseph Smith's papyrus did not contain the fabricated story of the Book of Abraham. The interpretations and translations of the Facsimile No. 3 are completely false. The Mormons were fooled by a conman.

User avatar
DrW
God
Posts: 7222
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by DrW »

Choyo Chagas wrote:
EdGoble wrote:...
because my beliefs and commitments have no reflection on my ability to think
...

he he

"he he" is right. What a load of nonsense.

The fact that an individual would even make such a statement says all that one needs to know about that individual's real ability to think, and more importantly their judgement (to say nothing of their wisdom - or abject lack thereof).

To be of any practical value, the 'ability to think' must include the ability to evaluate and weigh information, and then critically apply logic and reason to reach a valid conclusion or arrive at a tenable position or belief regarding a given issue. At its best, the process involves additional 'stress testing' of any hypothesis or conclusion against additional facts as they become available. Such an approach constitutes good judgement, and over time, endows one with wisdom.

The approach to decision making and belief described by EdGoble is that of an amateur prospector who, upon finding a large chunk of iron pyrite in a mountain stream, decides to quit his day job and pan for gold full time.
Last edited by DrW on Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Lemmie »

Ed's comment about his beliefs not influencing his ability to think reminded me of something he said late last year, that has stuck with me.
EdGoble wrote:I can't agree with you that people that leave Mormonism having once been converted, and having a certain amount of light, are in the same state as people that never had that light.... The people that leave Mormonism have broken covenants, and are responsible for that, and can never be in the same position as those who never made them, and never knew that level of light.

You say that I will never win these people over with the way that I am speaking. I didn't think that I would ever win anyone over, but I don't mince words about what I see as facts. I can't always treat people with kid gloves that make excuses for their state when it is a result of their own choices, as much as an alcoholic is responsible for his state.
viewtopic.php?p=1016627#p1016627
A belief like that influences one's ability to think, and I think it definitely influences how Ed communicates his thinking with "these people."

User avatar
grindael
Dragon
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by grindael »

I find it interesting that he is likening leaving the Church to an ADDICTION.

...make excuses for their state when it is a result of their own choices, as much as an alcoholic is responsible for his state.


I'm sure like everyone else here that he must realize that people also choose to drink (that is how they become alcoholics) , just like people choose to join the church. So when they leave, they are then in a "state" like "alcoholics"? Meaning, of course they are suffering from an addiction.

Out of all the choices he could have likened it to, he chose that one. Fascinating, but also weird and bizarre.

And what a freaking judgmental jerk he is. What "light" is he talking about? Adam-God? Blood Atonement? Racism? Covenants that include Blood Oaths? Revenge Oaths? Having to believe in Spiritual Wifeism? Phony "pseudepigrapha'? Doctored "revelations"? Blindly following leaders? Forced regulations? Forced tithing?

If this is his "light" we are all better off in the dark
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

User avatar
spotlight
God
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by spotlight »

As long as someone accepts the truth claims of the LDS church their abilities to think clearly are nil. That's because a false epistemology is established at conversion and until one leaves the religion it remains in place doing harm like a rootkit to a PC.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

I want to take this opportunity to refer readers to another thread entitled:

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham


http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35135

:biggrin:

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

EdGoble wrote:
They didn't have to, because they were repurposing all of the symbols in the document, including little pictures above the hand, etc.


Not according to the testimonies of Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt (and others). They were direct translations from Egyptian to English -- revealing the actual language on the papyrus itself. All testimony and statements attest that Joseph Smith was literally translating the Egyptian language into English and that the actual Book of Abraham was upon the papyrus. Moreover, the Explanations of the Facsimiles were literal translations -- true and correct -- Egyptian into English.

Joseph Smith HC 2:348-350 wrote:

"From New York he [Mr. Chandler] took his collection on to Philadelphia and obtained the certificate of the learned and from thence came on too Kirtland, as before related in July. Thus I have given a brief history of the manner in which the writings of the Fathers, Abraham, and Joseph have been preserved and how I came into possession of the same – a CORRECT TRANSLATION of which I shall give in its proper place"


Orson Pratt 43 years later, accounts for the papyrus wrote:

"Mr. Chandler had also obtained from learned men the best TRANSLATION HE could've SOME FEW CHARACTERS which however, was not a translation, but more in the shape of ideas with regard to it, their acquaintance with the language not being sufficient to ENABLE THEM TO TRANSLATE IT LITERALLY. After some conversation with the Prophet Joseph, Mr. Chandler presented to him the ancient characters, asking him if he could TRANSLATE THEM.

The prophet took them and repaired to his room and inquired of the Lord concerning them. The Lord told him they were sacred records, containing the inspired writings of Abraham when he was in Egypt, and also those of Joseph, while he was in Egypt; and they had been deposited with these mummies, which had been exhumed. And he also inquired of the Lord concerning some few characters which Mr. Chandler, gave him by way of a test, to see if he could translate them. The prophet Joseph TRANSLATED THESE CHARACTERS and returned them, with the translation to Mr. Chandler; and who, in comparing it with the translation of the same few characters by learned men, that he had before obtained, found the two to agree."


Etc.

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.


1. "a correct translation of which I shall give"

2. "translate it literally"

3. "translate them"

4. "translated these characters"

When it comes to the ancient Egyptian language -- Joe Smith didn't know jack crap what he was doing, nor did his sidekick the holy ghost. Mormon apologists are liars, all of them. Dishonest to the core. They deserve Joseph Smith. They deserve to roll around with him in the garbage he produced.

Themis
God
Posts: 13345
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Themis »

spotlight wrote:As long as someone accepts the truth claims of the LDS church their abilities to think clearly are nil. That's because a false epistemology is established at conversion and until one leaves the religion it remains in place doing harm like a rootkit to a PC.


I wouldn't say nil. Our beliefs can influence how clearly we think on issues related to those beliefs, but obviously lots of people, when confronted with new evidence, can alter their beliefs to fit the evidence. There are lots of factors to look at why some cannot alter their beliefs to fit the evidence. Tribal beliefs are some of the hardest to shake. Especially the ones the tribe tells us are the most important. Emotional factors are some of the worst at influencing our thinking, which is why many meetings and mechanisms found in religion are meant to create emotional attachments to the tribes beliefs. The main emotional mechanism in religion is the spiritual experience. That's not meant to say spiritual experiences are nothing more then emotions, but they almost always accompanying them and act as the glue to the interpretation you are influenced by your tribe to get.
42

User avatar
spotlight
God
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by spotlight »

Themis wrote:I wouldn't say nil. Our beliefs can influence how clearly we think on issues related to those beliefs, but obviously lots of people, when confronted with new evidence, can alter their beliefs to fit the evidence. There are lots of factors to look at why some cannot alter their beliefs to fit the evidence. Tribal beliefs are some of the hardest to shake. Especially the ones the tribe tells us are the most important. Emotional factors are some of the worst at influencing our thinking, which is why many meetings and mechanisms found in religion are meant to create emotional attachments to the tribes beliefs. The main emotional mechanism in religion is the spiritual experience. That's not meant to say spiritual experiences are nothing more then emotions, but they almost always accompanying them and act as the glue to the interpretation you are influenced by your tribe to get.


When one accepts the truth claims of the LDS church they accept that the way to truth is through the Holy Ghost that leads to all truth and by which all truth can be known. Either this is correct or it isn't correct. There are no shades of grey in this foundational principle.

So while something that is not a threat to their beliefs might appear to be something about which they think clearly the reasoning behind why they are comfortable with it is entirely different from someone else who accepts the same without this foundation implanted by the religion.

When someone confronts scientific facts that are not in agreement with their churches truth claims they go into apologetic mode and either alter what the church really teaches or actually taught without realizing that they have steadied the ark which is what we see at sites like FAIR or they imagine that somehow the science is wrong, it will change when more is discovered or there are other valid interpretations, etc.

We also see that while LDS abhor mixing the philosophies of men with religion they are more than happy to mingle them with science to the degree necessary not to address the implications of scientific facts or knowledge.

So by not thinking clearly I mean simply the mistake of starting with the conclusion and bending evidence to fit with that conclusion rather than starting with the evidence and fitting the most reasonable conclusion to the evidence without protecting any sacred cows with special pleading. Also by thinking clearly I refer to freedom from the need to apply a particular interpretation at all. No interpretations are a threat if we are thinking clearly as we are willing to go wherever the evidence leads us.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee

User avatar
Shulem
Son of Perdition
Posts: 11910
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by Shulem »

spotlight wrote:
So by not thinking clearly I mean simply the mistake of starting with the conclusion and bending evidence to fit with that conclusion rather than starting with the evidence and fitting the most reasonable conclusion to the evidence without protecting any sacred cows with special pleading. Also by thinking clearly I refer to freedom from the need to apply a particular interpretation at all. No interpretations are a threat if we are thinking clearly as we are willing to go wherever the evidence leads us.


The Mormon answer to everything is starting with the conclusion that the church is true no matter what. Everything must fall in line with supporting the conclusion -- that the church is true. If it seems that the evidence doesn't support the conclusion then the evidence is not fully understood or faulty. The Mormon way is to make the evidence support the conclusion. The conclusion is the conclusion and there can be no other conclusion. Damn the evidence.

Post Reply