Families are NOT forever.

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Southern Redneck
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Families are NOT forever.

Post by Southern Redneck »

A mantra heard and repeated so often in the church. One that bothers me for what it DOES NOT say.

Let's take a fictional John Doe and show how forever is family is.

John Doe is a happy man making his way in the world. He leads a good moral life and is happy. Then he meets a member and becomes a Mormon. The beliefs in families and eternal progression(if still believed. Check latest Hinckley interview please) are the first couple of items that hook him.

The moment he becomes a member he is bound by Mormon doctrinal law. As a good Mormon, he plans to go to the temple and take out his endowments.

He then is on a fast track to the Celestial kingdom. Alone. Very much alone.

You see. His family members never converted. He struggled the rest of his life to get his family to convert. So much so that some bridges were burned. Remember that all members are missionaries.

The members of his family were all good people. One sister in the peace corp, and a brother who worked in a food kitchen for decades. All active in the community.

One problem. The best they can make is the Terrestrial Kingdom. A place not to be confused with Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.

Now one other brother did not lead a great life. He whored around in his youth and did some other naughty deeds. He straightened up and became a good person, married and raised two great adopted kids, but was never a "good" Christian in many eyes. Because he was gay. He's likely shoved way down to the Telestial Kingdom.

Now John is damned miserable. He knows because his family was exposed to, and refused the church. becuase of this they will never progress. They denied the truthfulness of the church. He feels so horrible that he cannot see his mom without knowing the fact that she will never be with him in the next life. A level of pity starts to develop.

Seeing her is something that does not occur often as church work keeps him very busy.

This is the Mormon family. Torn apart and damned to separate levels.

Families are not forever. The second a person joins the church, they are torn from their family, and the individuals are divided in the afterlife.

One question.

Is G-d that f'ing mean and cruel?

This Mormon view of the eternal family plan, not to be confused with a bad cell phone family plan, is the one thing that pushes me away from the church the most.

Family is the cornerstone of my life, and trying to find happiness in it. Not the copyrighted "families are forever" chant, but the family that is there.

I have two. One of "active" members, and one of inactive sinners.

A question that does not need answering.

Which family knows the most about my fears likes, and troubles?

Love and family is not doctrinal. Love and family is eternal. If G-d divides because his cruel Mormon definition of the family in the afterlife is the best, then G-d can piss off.

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Nortinski
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Post by Nortinski »

My Dad, who will probably be dead within a year, is the only member of my family still in the cult. He's in his late 70's now and is quite senile. Dad has been married 4 times and he used to have a little cross stitch work hanging on his wall. It looked like your typical "Families Are Forever" sign that you would see in many Mormon homes. But, added to the top in a dark black thread he had added the word "some".

It was quite funny.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me

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Gazelam
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Eternal families

Post by Gazelam »

I answered a similar thread on another board, I reprint it here for your perusal:

This thread got me to thinking about the overall plan of Salvation. Sundancer asks a very honest and straightforward question, if family is so important, what happens when a key member falls? What happens to the covenant that was made?

All teachings of the gospel are given to us to help us in obtaining a Celestial lifestyle. If we are unable to abide by the laws of the celestial order, we wil never be able to dwell in that sphere. We would not be happy there. How happy woudl an unruly child be in a library? How much knowledge could a High school sophmore gain in a college physics class? That is the purpose of the covenants and ordinances God gives us, to instruct us in the lifestyle he lives, and he gives these small windows and habits to us Line upon Line and precept upon precept. He gives these to us because he loves us and desires for us to share in all that he has. He desires this to such a degree that he suffered and died for our sins, so that our shortcomings might have the price paid for. For every blessing that comes from God is based upon Laws, and the curseing attached must come the same as blessings. If we are unrepentant of our sins, we are unclean and cannot dwel in the sphere of God. Christ has taken upon himself, and paid the price of, the curseing that come from breaking the laws, on the condition of our repentance.

What has this to do with Marriage? Marriage is ordained of God, and he calls it the highest covenant we can make. it is a unique covenant, made between three people. When God married Adam and Eve, he did so when they were Immortal, meaning it is intended by God for marriage to be for time and all eternity, not until death do we part.

What does this Law, this Covenant, say to us about our Father in heaven? it tells us that this law was given that we might learn to be like him. God our Father has a wife, our Heavenly Mother. Living a righteous and Holy Mariage, with all the happiness and sorrow, and lessons, that come with it. there is a lesson to be learned in this life in living a marriage lifestyle, it instructs us. In what other way can we be more like our Father in heaven, as we go through the struggle of trying to rear Goodly offspring? In trying to guide our children to succeed, only to watch some fall, and struggle needlessly as they try to overcome bad decisions. As we learn mercy, and forgiveness.

Marriages fail, this is true. We live in a fallen world, and the nature of a fallen world is for things to break down and decay. It is the application of Eternal spiritual law that overcomes decay and rot, that sanctifies and purifys and prepares the spirit for things that are eternal. Those things that are touched upon by Holy things and sanctified will arise with us in the resurrection in glory. A sanctified and Holy marriage is no different. If through living the gospel as a couple, and overcoming the world in that state, the Marrige will arise in the resurrection in glory, and be sanctified and receive the attached reward to that law.

Gazelam
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Southern Redneck
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Re: Eternal families

Post by Southern Redneck »

Gazelam wrote:What has this to do with Marriage? Marriage is ordained of God, and he calls it the highest covenant we can make. it is a unique covenant, made between three people.


I don't see that as true at all. Marriage was not ordained by God. Marriage was co-opted by the church(and churches). In my leaving the church I have come to the conclusion that the church has stolen the idea of marriage and family and used them as a cudgel over our heads.

Is God spastic? What form of marriage? Man and woman, man and three(or more) women, man and woman and whomever he can enslave from the next village?. Seems his "ordained" marriage sure changes. Who is to say that todays changes in marriage because of gays is not ordained. Maybe the leadership of most churches is kicking against the prics and denying Gods latest version (Marriage V 10.3 BETA). So saying that marriage is ordained by God implies that God cannot make up his mind, or else his mind is controlled by a bunch of gray haired old farts in Salt Lake City. Either way God looses on this issue big time.

Gazelam wrote: it is a unique covenant, made between three people.

If by using the word "unique" you mean "damn strange", then I agree. Wait. Was this the "slitting your throat" marriage, or the "post slitting your throat" marriage. Or the new PC-study induced "No naked touching" marriage. Tell God to quit changing him mind on the unchanging ordinance.

I married my wife. Sadly I did the old "slit tear die" form of marriage. How damn romantic.

The first step in freedom from the church is realizing that a marriage is a twosome, not a threesome.

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OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by OUT OF MY MISERY »

Redneck

Yep you are right marriage is a committed relationship between two people, not three
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........

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Rank&File
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Re: Eternal families

Post by Rank&File »

Gazelam wrote:What has this to do with Marriage? Marriage is ordained of God, and he calls it the highest covenant we can make. it is a unique covenant, made between three people. When God married Adam and Eve, he did so when they were Immortal, meaning it is intended by God for marriage to be for time and all eternity, not until death do we part.


I am a little confused because I can't find the verse in Genesis that says God married Adam and Eve. Also I can't find the verse where it says that it is the highest covenant that we can make.

The only one I can think of is Matt 22:30

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

Christ was talking about how we will become like "Angels". Angels are deathless creatures who do not propagate and have no need for marriage. Once we are resurrected, the saints will have the same characteristics as an Angel.

That does not mean that I will not see others and Loved Ones since we will all be in Heaven. If you are at Wal-Mart and I am at Wal-Mart, I am sure we can hang out together.

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gramps
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Post by gramps »

Gazelam wrote:

What has this to do with Marriage? Marriage is ordained of God, and he calls it the highest covenant we can make. it is a unique covenant, made between three people.


This is really nonsense. If made with three, why not with four? I mean God is married right? or why not with all the wives?

Gazelam, do you really feel you married two other people when you married your wife? That is really weird.

Can you explain what that is like in your relationship without getting too personal? What does it really mean, in actual practice, in your daily lives? How does that threesome work out for the two of you? or for the three of you? Could you explain it practically to me, so that I might begin to understand what you mean?

Thanks. gramps.
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harmony
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Re: Eternal families

Post by harmony »

Gazelam wrote:I answered a similar thread on another board, I reprint it here for your perusal:

This thread got me to thinking about the overall plan of Salvation. Sundancer asks a very honest and straightforward question, if family is so important, what happens when a key member falls? What happens to the covenant that was made?

All teachings of the gospel are given to us to help us in obtaining a Celestial lifestyle. If we are unable to abide by the laws of the celestial order, we wil never be able to dwell in that sphere. We would not be happy there. How happy woudl an unruly child be in a library? How much knowledge could a High school sophmore gain in a college physics class? That is the purpose of the covenants and ordinances God gives us, to instruct us in the lifestyle he lives, and he gives these small windows and habits to us Line upon Line and precept upon precept. He gives these to us because he loves us and desires for us to share in all that he has. He desires this to such a degree that he suffered and died for our sins, so that our shortcomings might have the price paid for. For every blessing that comes from God is based upon Laws, and the curseing attached must come the same as blessings. If we are unrepentant of our sins, we are unclean and cannot dwel in the sphere of God. Christ has taken upon himself, and paid the price of, the curseing that come from breaking the laws, on the condition of our repentance.

What has this to do with Marriage? Marriage is ordained of God, and he calls it the highest covenant we can make. it is a unique covenant, made between three people. When God married Adam and Eve, he did so when they were Immortal, meaning it is intended by God for marriage to be for time and all eternity, not until death do we part.

What does this Law, this Covenant, say to us about our Father in heaven? it tells us that this law was given that we might learn to be like him. God our Father has a wife, our Heavenly Mother. Living a righteous and Holy Mariage, with all the happiness and sorrow, and lessons, that come with it. there is a lesson to be learned in this life in living a marriage lifestyle, it instructs us. In what other way can we be more like our Father in heaven, as we go through the struggle of trying to rear Goodly offspring? In trying to guide our children to succeed, only to watch some fall, and struggle needlessly as they try to overcome bad decisions. As we learn mercy, and forgiveness.

Marriages fail, this is true. We live in a fallen world, and the nature of a fallen world is for things to break down and decay. It is the application of Eternal spiritual law that overcomes decay and rot, that sanctifies and purifys and prepares the spirit for things that are eternal. Those things that are touched upon by Holy things and sanctified will arise with us in the resurrection in glory. A sanctified and Holy marriage is no different. If through living the gospel as a couple, and overcoming the world in that state, the Marrige will arise in the resurrection in glory, and be sanctified and receive the attached reward to that law.

Gazelam


Call for references. C'mon, Gazelam. You know you're in deep up to your knees, and the water's rapidly rising, and now I'd like to see the references. (mainly because I know you don't have any, but still... knock yourself out). Anything learned in the temple is symbolic, remember? And that includes Initiatories, Endowment, and Sealing. The marriage triangle is symbolic too, because everything in the temple is symbolic. When members try to make the temple teachings literal is when we get doctrinal teachings like the whole name thing b-ass-ackwards.

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Jason Bourne
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Re: Families are NOT forever.

Post by Jason Bourne »

Southern Redneck wrote:A mantra heard and repeated so often in the church. One that bothers me for what it DOES NOT say.

Let's take a fictional John Doe and show how forever is family is.

John Doe is a happy man making his way in the world. He leads a good moral life and is happy. Then he meets a member and becomes a Mormon. The beliefs in families and eternal progression(if still believed. Check latest Hinckley interview please) are the first couple of items that hook him.

The moment he becomes a member he is bound by Mormon doctrinal law. As a good Mormon, he plans to go to the temple and take out his endowments.

He then is on a fast track to the Celestial kingdom. Alone. Very much alone.

You see. His family members never converted. He struggled the rest of his life to get his family to convert. So much so that some bridges were burned. Remember that all members are missionaries.

The members of his family were all good people. One sister in the peace corp, and a brother who worked in a food kitchen for decades. All active in the community.

One problem. The best they can make is the Terrestrial Kingdom. A place not to be confused with Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.

Now one other brother did not lead a great life. He whored around in his youth and did some other naughty deeds. He straightened up and became a good person, married and raised two great adopted kids, but was never a "good" Christian in many eyes. Because he was gay. He's likely shoved way down to the Telestial Kingdom.

Now John is damned miserable. He knows because his family was exposed to, and refused the church. becuase of this they will never progress. They denied the truthfulness of the church. He feels so horrible that he cannot see his mom without knowing the fact that she will never be with him in the next life. A level of pity starts to develop.

Seeing her is something that does not occur often as church work keeps him very busy.

This is the Mormon family. Torn apart and damned to separate levels.

Families are not forever. The second a person joins the church, they are torn from their family, and the individuals are divided in the afterlife.

One question.

Is G-d that f'ing mean and cruel?

This Mormon view of the eternal family plan, not to be confused with a bad cell phone family plan, is the one thing that pushes me away from the church the most.

Family is the cornerstone of my life, and trying to find happiness in it. Not the copyrighted "families are forever" chant, but the family that is there.

I have two. One of "active" members, and one of inactive sinners.

A question that does not need answering.

Which family knows the most about my fears likes, and troubles?

Love and family is not doctrinal. Love and family is eternal. If G-d divides because his cruel Mormon definition of the family in the afterlife is the best, then G-d can piss off.


Most religions have people being seperated due to bad choices, rejection of whatever the religion thinks is true etc.

Is God cruel to send people to Hell because they do not believe in Jesus? Is God cruel because he sends them to hell if they do not believe in Allah? I think we really do not know what the heck God will do. I hope he is at least as forgiving of us as he, based on various scripture, expects us to be of each other.

Jason

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Southern Redneck
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Re: Families are NOT forever.

Post by Southern Redneck »

Jason Bourne wrote:Is God cruel to send people to Hell because they do not believe in Jesus? Is God cruel because he sends them to hell if they do not believe in Allah? I think we really do not know what the heck God will do. I hope he is at least as forgiving of us as he, based on various scripture, expects us to be of each other.


The views you just mentioned are all bad looking. Sadly they were the words of God from the mouths of men. Since most church leaders past, present, and of most religions, were self serving, then the views of God became self serving. Hell. That was one of the main issues that made me walk from the church. The fact that God was seemingly throwing people into hell/outer darkness over Tea and other stupid things. The first step in finding peace was seeing that all that crap was from man, and not God.

Being a good moral person is from God, going to outer darkness and losing your family over tea is from man.

What you wrote is true. That "view" of God is cruel.....if God had the habit of speeking through the mouths of fools. The first step to freedom of God, is seperating God and his self appointed leaders.

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Between three

Post by Gazelam »

The ordinances we perform ar ebetween ourselves and God. these include baptism, initiatory work, and endowment. A marriage covenant is different, it is between Husband, Wife and God.

Did I really need to explain this?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

harmony
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Re: Between three

Post by harmony »

Gazelam wrote:The ordinances we perform ar ebetween ourselves and God. these include baptism, initiatory work, and endowment. A marriage covenant is different, it is between Husband, Wife and God.

Did I really need to explain this?


Actually, no, Gazelam. Marriage is between 2 people under the direction of the state. It's secular, and always has been. After you've studied the history of marriage, come back and we'll have this conversation.

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Gazelam
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Scripture references

Post by Gazelam »

Purpose of Covenants: 2 Nephi chp.31

Line upon Line: 2 Nephi 28:30

Purpose of Christ: 2 Nephi 2:26-29, John 3:14-21

Clean to dwell with God: 3 Nephi 27:14-20

Marriage ordained of God: Gen. 2:18-25, D&C 132:14-22

Laws sanctify: D&C 93:11-28

Yes the temple is symbolic, the symbolism is there to help us understand the ordinances we have just taken a part of. We are all immortal, how we spend the rest of eternity depends a great deal on our diligence in obeying eternal laws while our memories of eternity have been dampened.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Southern Redneck
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Post by Southern Redneck »

A marriage covenant is different, it is between Husband, Wife and God.

A marriage covenent is a morg item. Marriage ordained by God is all nice and all, if true. The leap from "ordained" to "part of a threesome" is a morg jump in logic that doesn't fly.

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