A question for the forum

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Pahoran
God
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:20 pm

A question for the forum

Post by Pahoran »

I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran

Quantumwave
Sunbeam
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:35 pm

Post by Quantumwave »

I have a problem believing the incident actually happened, but if it did, I believe I would have done the same thing Elder Talmage did under the described circumstances.

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 22509
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Post by moksha »

Strip his clothes off him? Was this a gathering of Hells Angels for Christ or something similar?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

Ray A

Post by Ray A »

I don't know what the answer is, but I think you should stick around Pahoran. I haven't had this much entertainment since Halley's comet in 1986.

Yoda

Re: A question for the forum

Post by Yoda »

Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran


How would it reflect badly on Elder Talmage? It seems like the other Christians were being very un-Christian. I've never heard this story before, but if it's true, he certainly did the right thing by leaving.

Pahoran, I've got a question for you. What kind of answers did you expect to get on this forum? Does my answer or some of the others who have felt that Talmage did the right thing surprise you?

Mister Scratch
Master Mahan
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:13 pm

Post by Mister Scratch »

Difficult to say, and I wish I knew the full context of the story. I.e., Did Talmage tell the other Christians that they were "vile" and "brazen liars" and did he call them to repentance?

I don't know, Pah. I feel like I need more info. If they were simply doing this to him to be mean, then I think that he most definitely had a right to leave. Another question: Did he simply show up and start preaching? Or had he been invited?

If you're using this story as a metaphor for yourself, then I'll say unequivocally that I'd be glad for you to stay. I hope I've made that clear all along.

harmony
God
Posts: 18195
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by harmony »

Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran


Please post your sources. Because quite frankly, I'm having difficulty believing such a thing happened, and this is definitely the first time I've heard of it.

Pahoran
God
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:20 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by Pahoran »

liz3564 wrote:
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran

How would it reflect badly on Elder Talmage? It seems like the other Christians were being very un-Christian. I've never heard this story before, but if it's true, he certainly did the right thing by leaving.

Pahoran, I've got a question for you. What kind of answers did you expect to get on this forum? Does my answer or some of the others who have felt that Talmage did the right thing surprise you?

I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.

And no, I'm not surprised by the answers I've received so far.

Regards,
Pahoran

harmony
God
Posts: 18195
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by harmony »

Pahoran wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran

How would it reflect badly on Elder Talmage? It seems like the other Christians were being very un-Christian. I've never heard this story before, but if it's true, he certainly did the right thing by leaving.

Pahoran, I've got a question for you. What kind of answers did you expect to get on this forum? Does my answer or some of the others who have felt that Talmage did the right thing surprise you?

I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.


Well, when you find it, get back to us. I'm interested in context, the time, date, and place it happened, what else was going on at the time, and were there any police within calling distance?

In the meantime, we'll assume it's another just one of your... undocumented allegations, and give it all the scrutiny to which it is due.

And no, I'm not surprised by the answers I've received so far.

Regards,
Pahoran


Well, you haven't received much of anything but a call for references that I can see. What did you expect?

User avatar
Pokatator
Famous Potato
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:38 am

Post by Pokatator »

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, have you asked the FAIRites? Or Quinn himself?

Anyway, as for me, the last thing I would want to do is see another naked or half naked Mormon, especially a male one.

Pahoran
God
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:20 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by Pahoran »

harmony wrote:
Pahoran wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Regards,
Pahoran

How would it reflect badly on Elder Talmage? It seems like the other Christians were being very un-Christian. I've never heard this story before, but if it's true, he certainly did the right thing by leaving.

Pahoran, I've got a question for you. What kind of answers did you expect to get on this forum? Does my answer or some of the others who have felt that Talmage did the right thing surprise you?

I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.


Well, when you find it, get back to us. I'm interested in context, the time, date, and place it happened, what else was going on at the time, and were there any police within calling distance?

In the meantime, we'll assume it's another just one of your... undocumented allegations, and give it all the scrutiny to which it is due.

Nice euphemism. Well, this is not the source I originally saw, but it tells the same story:

Nov 11,1919 - Apostle James E. Talmage attends Third Christian Citizenship Conference in Pittsburgh as delegate chosen by Utah's governor. Utah delegates are booed and hissed by 4,000 other delegates. Talmage hurriedly leaves after some delegates surround him and threaten to strip off his clothes in order to display his temple garments.(Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power)

But hey--maybe I made that up, too.

Regards,
Pahoran

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 22509
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Post by moksha »

1919? That explains it. With all that pent up Victorian repression, they probably got all steamed up at the thought
of seeing a little garment. Those naughty Victorians! Must have given Elder Talmadge quite a fright.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

harmony
God
Posts: 18195
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by harmony »

Now see? That didn't hurt too much, did it?

Nov 11,1919 - Apostle James E. Talmage attends Third Christian Citizenship Conference in Pittsburgh as delegate chosen by Utah's governor. Utah delegates are booed and hissed by 4,000 other delegates. Talmage hurriedly leaves after some delegates surround him and threaten to strip off his clothes in order to display his temple garments.(Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power)

But hey--maybe I made that up, too.

Regards,
Pahoran


So this took place almost 100 years ago, only a few years after the second Manifesto that finally did away with one of the two barbaric practices the Republican party was formed to see ground into the dust. What significance do you see this incident having to today's world? Or do you often troll history to find something to be outraged about?

Yoda

Post by Yoda »

You said earlier that you had some specific thoughts regarding this story, Pahoran.

We've shard our views. I think most of us, whether or not we are for or against the Church, think that Elder Talmage was perfectly justified in leaving, and it sounds like the group he was attending was in the wrong for threatening him.

I'm still confused as to how this could be construed to make Elder Talmage look foolish. Your thoughts?

User avatar
asbestosman
God
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by asbestosman »

I would say that their anger was understandable, but their threat was inexcusable. Stripping someone down to their underwear is almost always done to embarass the person, and in a rather base manner. I'm almost embarassed for those who think underwear is a great way to ridicule someone. What's next? We threaten to strip people down to expose which men wear ladies underwear and which ones wear Depends?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO

Mister Scratch
Master Mahan
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:13 pm

Post by Mister Scratch »

This is a good anecdote, Pahoran.

I still feel like I don't have the full context, but I do agree with Liz and asbestosman that Talmage was justified in leaving. As to who was to "blame," once again, I just don't feel like I have all the info I need to make that call. For example, were LDS invited to participate in this get-together, or did they just show up? You said in your OP that Talmage "tried to talk to the 'Christians'," but I see no indication that that's what took place. For all we know, he could have been lecturing them, or accusing them of being "vile anti-Mormons."

In any case, I do think that the threat was unfortunate, and that Talmage was justified in fleeing.

User avatar
Runtu
God
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by Runtu »

Pahoran wrote:
liz3564 wrote:I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.

And no, I'm not surprised by the answers I've received so far.

Regards,
Pahoran


If it had been me, I would have done just as Elder Talmage did. I'm not sure how inappropriate threats by others could be spun to make Talmage look foolish.

User avatar
gramps
God
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:43 am

Post by gramps »

Pahoran, why are you using Quinn as a resource for anything? Huh?

If another, especially a critic, brings up Quinn, you insult Quinn's good name by accusing him of getting exed for being a "practising homosexual." Which you know is not true, don't you?

So, how should we respond to you if now you want to use him as a source for such a stupid story to begin with? What's your point, Pahoran? Why is Quinn's research now to be taken seriously? And what are you doing using it? after the s*** you dished out about him on FAIR(?)?

Should I put your statement about Quinn up here for everyone to see? Do you admit that you belittle his good name for cheap apologetic purposes?

I lost all respect for you the day you did that, Pahoran.

And, I'm sure you have little for me. Trust me. I can live with that.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland

User avatar
Rollo Tomasi
God
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:27 am

Re: A question for the forum

Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Quinn relates this story in his timeline in Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power on p. 817. Talmage, and other Utah delegates, were also booed and hissed by the other 4,000 delegates. I would have done the same as Talmage in that situation (I don't think it reflects badly on him at all -- but it certainly does on those who threatened him), as well as noting the irony that the conference's treatment of the Utah delegation was decidedly unChristian.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

harmony
God
Posts: 18195
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: A question for the forum

Post by harmony »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.

Quinn relates this story in his timeline in Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power on p. 817. Talmage, and other Utah delegates, were also booed and hissed by the other 4,000 delegates. I would have done the same as Talmage in that situation (I don't think it reflects badly on him at all -- but it certainly does on those who threatened him), as well as noting the irony that the conference's treatment of the Utah delegation was decidedly unChristian.


What was Talmadge doing at the conference anyway? I can't see the Mormons being invited. Did they crash the conference? Were they invited (that would have been odd, considering the anti-Mormon sentiments of the day). Were Jews invited? Muslims? Wiccans? Any other non-Christians?

User avatar
Gazelam
Lightbearer
Posts: 5659
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:06 pm

Are Mormons Christian

Post by Gazelam »

Lets put this in a modern setting.

An interfaith confrence is held with the larger of the 1,500 various christian religions attending to discuss various gospel topics.

In the section of the confrence discussing the trinity an LDS member addresses the attendees and tells the story of the First Vision.

What woudl be the responce of the attendees?

Gazelam
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

Post Reply